Re: Dylan Live

On Aug 2, 11:35 am, "Just Walkin'" <kensh...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Aug 2, 12:06 am, Treadleson <treadl...@xxxxxxx> wrote:


.........
OK. Posting from the top:
......
You still don't get it, do you?

I am not attacking Barbara's right to her opinion; I am defending
Bob's right to present his art as he sees fit, whether I like it or
not.

What you're doing is belittling, ridiculing and patronizing Barbara
for views that don't coincide with yours. That's known as attacking
no matter how you want to split hairs. I doubt she'll ever get an
apology from you but an acknowledgment would at least show some
integrity.

..

What are you doing other than calling people names?

I'm calling you on your ***. But I'm not calling you names.







On Aug 1, 3:22 pm, "Just Walkin'" <kensh...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Aug 1, 11:22 am, Treadleson <treadl...@xxxxxxx> wrote:

On Aug 1, 11:52 am, "Just Walkin'" <kensh...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jul 31, 10:24 pm, Treadleson <treadl...@xxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jul 31, 1:04 am, "Barbara" <barbarac...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Last year I went to a Dylan show and complained how bad it was and how moody
and ungrateful Dylan acted to the audience.
I still want to say---I still feel that way and the people who defend him,
saying he owes us nothing, I still don't agree with.

I just came back from a KC and the Sunshine Band show and the band was
tight, it made Dylan's bad look like, how shall I say---garbage?

Dylan's attitude was horrible the night I saw him. He never really looked at
the audience, thanked the audience or anything. We paid a lot for those
tickets and he acted way ungrateful. I think he bowed once, still wthout
talking and left.

KC's band was tops--super tight, great musicians.
He was so amiable. He goofed on himself, for his weight, age, etc...BUT
thanked us for being there and showing him and his group love and showed his
appreciation to us.

I love Bob's music, but as a person, his attitude was horrible. He acted
like he didn't want to be there and was doing us a favor!

And Bob's band could never compare to the sounds I heard tonight. Incredible
band.

I've heard Smokey and America at the same place I went tonight and they too
were friendly and thanked us for coming and said how they loved us.

Bob needs help compared to these people and people in general.. Yeah, his
music and lyrics are great. But as a person, no.

Just getting this off my chest. I will never forget how many people, Jinx in
particular defended Bob--like Bob was doing us a big favor. Without fans,
what would he have? I paid a lot to see him and heard bad music and hardly
saw him, because he wouldn't even look up. And changing his songs to the
point of being unrecognizable, I think pleases him more than the people,
except Jinx and others that are like him.

Just telling it as I see it.

Such a same. They say what goes around comes around. I wish Bob the best,
but he didn't us his best that night.

What a shame.

He gets away with it because there are enough fanatics like
JustWalking out there who will defend him no matter how awful the
show, keep paying those ticket prices and then attack anyone who dares
to question his sloppiness, poor musicianship and poutiness. Bless
you for pointing out that the folk rocker has no clothes.
.....
No fanatic here. I don't say something is great when it's not. I am
just mindful of, though not necessarily supportive of, the set of
market relations that create the context for the delivery of Bob's
music.

Clearly you don't understand market relations that create the context
for the delivery of Bob's music. The market presently hypes Bob Dylan
behind all measure. If you follow Dylan, you will be aware of this..
His organization actively seeks out the Newsweeks and Itunes of this
world to give him maximum exposure. These things don't happen by
themselves.

When you pay artists to partake of their work in a market
driven cultural economy, you take your chances whether you are going
to like it or not.

.....

If people don't like it, then, according to market
theory, they won't pay for it or support it and it'll fade away.

The supply and demand curve is irrelevant. Barbara was talking about
her own demand.

There
is no Office of Consumer Affairs for Performing Arts to enforce
quality; if Barbara doesn't like his performance, she is free, by her
own sacred philosophy, free not to patronize it.
....
However, to agitate opinion against Bob as an artist because she felt
less than satisfied at a concert is not, in this case, the regulating
mechanism that controls or determines success in the market.

I have no idea what this sentence means. I do know that in the
"marketplace" --whose praises you keep singing-- agitating against
inferior quality is a good thing designed to either improve quality or
flush the offensive thing out of the "market." Hopefully it will be
the former. You also know the theory of price inelasticity, I'm sure,
which is that certain items in the market resist supply and demand
pressure because they are either rare or slightly subversive or
because--heroin and crack for example--they feed an addiction to
something toxic.
....

And of
course, by the Constitution itself, she is free to make her opinions
known as often and as freely as she cares to. But the point of the
post was not to implore Bob to do a better job or find out if other
fans felt this way.
.......
It was simply a mean-spirited attack on Bob's
stage presence from a disgruntled customer's perspective. There will
be more hate mail to follow, I am sure, now that Bob has tipped his
hand as to who he finds of interest this election cycle. We'll see how
many more fans have turned, for "other reasons" now that there are
real stakes on the table...

The Constitution is irrelevant here. But American custom is live and
let live. Your belittling of Barbara's opinion because it doesn't
conform to yours, and your attempt to associate her tastes with the
riff raff and the brain-dead masses because she had a reasonable
expectation of a decent show is what's really mean spirited. People
have a right to pay for garbage and tell themselves it's art but that
doesn't give them the right to dump on people who don't like to pay
for garbage.

Bob Dylan had it right in that documentary. "And if they enjoy
getting whipped, aren't they being entertained?"

First off, I do not revere these so-called market forces. When I refer
to them, I speak tongue in cheek as I know that the market selection
process in our economy is not subject to a matter of exchange of
equals. It is a complete construct that works more in accordance with
Edward Bernays than with Adam Smith.

Secondly, I do not mistake those forces that seek to create or
stimulate markets with those forces classically defined as the forces
of the market which allegedly determine supply and demand. The forces
you refer to are manipulators of the market, you know, the ones that
stoke the media to pump sales, fabricate demand and create a level of
consensus supporting the work. The forces I refer to are those that
Americans mistakenly think of as the true arbiter of public taste –
sales.

Now whether Bob gives us garbage or not, isn’t the point; people pay
for it. Some like it, some grouse about it.
......
Some do something about
it. But there is a big difference between offering legitimate artistic
criticism and complaining as a consumer. And that is where the
argument bifurcates. Are we talking about the artistic merits of what
Bob is doing or whether it’s worth the money to a consumer that now,
at this late date, decides to grouse about his band, voice, persona,
performance, etc for some unidentified reason.?

She posted about this one short year ago. Now she says:

"Last year I went to a Dylan show and complained how bad it was and
how moody
and ungrateful Dylan acted to the audience.
I still want to say---I still feel that way and the people who defend
him,
saying he owes us nothing, I still don't agree with."

Other people in this thread have offered their assessments about the
quality of his current shows (low). Perhaps for you, Jinx and a very
few others it is not so, but in general this question isn't in much
controversy. She saw a tight band recently that really delivered. It
doesn't matter who. The point is that they were present and committed
to their work. This stood in sharp contrast to the muddiness of
Dylan's music and the surliness of his attitude. Finally, this just
reconfirmed for her that she disagrees with those who defend him
(when he gives lousy shows, I think she means) and who say he owes his
ticket buying public nothing (in terms of committed playing and an
acknowledgment of his audience since he is, after all, playing in a
public hall, not his private bedroom). Not only is she saying
something reasonable, she's having the same reaction that thousands,
perhaps hundreds of thousands have during a Bob Dylan concert. So
she's actually pretty in step with lots of other Bob Dylan fans. And
yet you skewer her for expressing a pretty widespread feeling and for
saying that the emperor has no clothes. Maybe the "intolerarian" here
isn't her but you.

Lastly, just as it is her right to sound off so too is mine, and
yours, and even Jinx's, bless his soul. But just as I am here and you
are here and she is here to defend ourselves against attacks from
others, Mr. Jinx has not been around in ages hence Barbara was doing
what all good intoleratarians do and that is speak behind people's
backs using innuendo and gossip to besmirch their character.

And you are defending her what? Her opinion or her right to an
opinion?

KC and the Sunshine Band, indeed!
....
Next thing we'll hear is that McCain really stands for peace...

Dylan attracts a lot of dogmatists.

.

Loading