Re: Now tell me hun, whatcha done with the gun

Wow.

You got all of that from my post?
And here I've been wasting all that time and money on therapy.
sheesh... If I had but known.
;-)


Where did I "defend giving a peace prize to an environmentalist"?
I thought I was simply answering a question in as logical a manor as
possible about what *might* have gone into the reasoning of giving a
peace prize to an environmentalist.

"There are so many Bobs out there who are not part of the vast right
wing
conspiracy at whose feet you put all the blame for the oil problem."

You miss the point entirely. We are all responsible. Our daily choices
make the "oil problem." Because it is our culture, how we grow up,
what has surrounded us we don't see it. we are an instant
gratification culture... and I certainly include myself in this. Most
of us have very little if any awareness of how people live in most of
the rest of the world. Most of our poor... and I am one of them living
on a fixed income well below the poverty line... live better than 90
plus percent of the rest of the world. Not rhetoric, fact.
The rhetoric comes in when you blame the poor for being poor in order
to justify your callousness.

Let me stop here and make the disclaimer that I
am using all the terms like
"we," "you," "us," and "them" in a general
sense, not in a particular sense.

The vast right wing conspiracy: yes. If you read PNAC "Project for the
New American Century" authored by the neo-cons who brought us to war
you might begin to wonder if that vast right wing conspiracy isn't
more than just a sarcastic turn of phrase. I'm not a conspiracy
theorist... nor am I a coincidence theorist.

Do I believe the oil companies and the vast right wing conspiracy
created the "oil problem" No, ignorance did that. Ignorance not used
in the pejorative sense... rather meaning unknowing. There are many
things we have done that we were ignorant of the consequences. When we
realize the consequences we take action to change the direction and
minimize the impact. That is why there are now agencies that try to
deal with things like Food and Drug Safety, Environmental Protection,
Workplace Safety. They don't always run well and whether I like
bureaucracy and big government or not isn't the point. They were
created for a reason... because unfortunately those who are
responsible for the damage won't take the responsibility to do the
correct thing themselves.

So now we have an issue or problem with unintended consequences, the
correct way to behave is to take action to change the direction and
minimize the impact. This isn't new. We've know for at least a
generation... or two... or three... that our impact on the
environment was moving in a calamitous direction and action was needed
to stave off dire consequences.
Why do you think Nixon created the EPA? In 1970! NIXON! not exactly
known for his liberal ideology.

We can't claim ignorance anymore. Now it isn't ignorance, it is
willful disregard. That is what I put the "blame" on. You and I can
only recycle so much, limit our driving and consumption so much... we
are powerless to make the big changes. The ones who do have the
ability, power and opportunity to take the initiative (and the
responsibility) don't. It costs money. Profit, maximum profit is the
goal. It is shortsighted and greedy.
And we are part of that in that we just keep consuming everything that
gets produced. Its our pollution and our waste in the landfills. It is
our responsibility to push for a positive change in whatever way we
can, local government, grass roots organizations, political
engagement.
Unfortunately I don't think most people can see past their own
desires... I want it and I want it now.
"He wants it all and he wants it his way."
We can say its the law of "supply and demand" but that is a two way
street, it isn't just the demand that creates the supply, it is the
constant stream of "new" and "better" and "bigger," and "improved"
supplies that create the demand. There are highly paid consultants
with psyche degrees helping to create the advertising campaigns on
Madison Avenue that help us make our consumer decisions.
Is it wrong? Am I blaming?
Not in the sense you think I am... or seem to think I am. Ignorance,
unknowing is forgivable... it is the refusal to take action once it
was known that there were consequences to be paid by future
generations and the (documented) deliberate misinformation strategies
employed by those in positions of power that are not forgivable and
ARE to blame.
Am I ideological? Maybe, in some ways. I'm not an ideologue who will
blindly deny what is apparent before me. It takes too much work to do
that, you lose your sense of humor when you have to live in denial.
I've always been accused of seeing too many shades of gray as a matter
of fact. My friends have despaired at my analytical search for the
nuances.
In this case I feel I have done my research, I have taken University
courses on environmental economics, I have studied political history,
and I have a long past to look back on and watch the trajectory of
greed. I've seen the Republican party highjacked by ultra right wing
neo-cons who aren't right, and certainly aren't conservatives. (And
lets not even talk about what they have done to Christianity! Good God
almighty!) The policies that have become "how we do things" in
Washington would make good conservatives spin in their graves. If you
look to the past, historically I mean you can see us doing what has
been done time and time again to the detriment to the citizens and the
downfall or collapse of the powerful and of the country.

Does that mean a revolution, or a nation attacking us? No, hopefully
not anyway. It means that we are on our way to becoming a third rate
nation through our greed and corruption and because we refuse to read
the signs and heed the warnings of the prophetic voices amongst us. In
fact we demonize them.
Greed and corruption aren't new, they are always present where there
is power and money. When it becomes systemic we have a big problem.
There is a price to pay. It is just what is, how it works.

Have I digressed?
Probably, my mind works that way, sifting through the connections and
interweavings. Nothing exists in isolation.

So yeah... now that I have thought on it I do think Al Gore deserved
to win the Nobel Peace Prize. I do think waking people up to the fact
we are on the brink might help us come back. I do think educating
people on what is at stake and the need for working together to ensure
there will be enough for all instead of keeping our blinders on and
then fighting for the scraps can bring about peace. This issue is
beyond boundaries, nations, ideologies. A concerted co-operative plan
is needed that takes in the needs of all, the benefit of all to be
implemented by all. Sounds peacemaking to me... The alternatives are
too ugly to comprehend... it won't be peaceful.

And yes, I know that the far left plays as many tricks as the far
right... and may be just as dangerous given enough power... I just
don't think this is a right left issue. I think it is dead center and
those using it for political gain (follow the money, follow the
lobbyists) are exactly why Gore won't allow himself to be drafted into
the Presidential election. This is more important than sides.

I could have quoted so many Dylan lines through out this, they just
kept coming, but I would have had to go look them up to be sure I had
them right etc. so I didn't.
Here are some links for you if you are interested.
http://tinyurl.com/2rzja5
http://tinyurl.com/23xtt3
http://tinyurl.com/5c3qh
http://www.footprintnetwork.org/
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
http://tinyurl.com/394zpm

As far as Bob and the Humvee go...I do think the Humvee is obscene and
"all the Bobs out there" should be ashamed of driving them. that being
said I would have hoped the humor in my bemoaning the shame would have
been evident.

I mean I didn't break up with him...I just want to kick his ass.

Furthermore Bobby isn't my boyfriend, he is my IMAGINARY boyfriend...
there is a huge difference.
LOL
Well, this was a fun way to start the day... get the old brain cells
up and moving again.

Have a good one.
;)





You sound very ideological. Rather one sided. I thought you might
have missed the irony of your boyfriend driving the humvee. There are
so many Bobs out there who are not part of the vast right wing
conspiracy at whose feet you put all the blame for the oil problem.
And yet they are a part of the problem.

You can defend giving the Nobel Peace Prize to an environmentalist if
you want to (again, this isn't a burning issue of our time), but big
lies start with little lies, and most commonly the little lies start
with slight changes in definition or with euphemisms. In this way, in
one quick, bold stroke, the awards committee equates environmentalism
with peace in many peoples' minds, when in fact they are really
separate things. You sound well versed enough in the shenanigans of
the right to know how shenanigans work on the other side of the fence
too.








On Oct 17, 1:11 am, Treadleson <treadl...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
On Oct 17, 12:44 am, oh mercy <magdalenastud...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:



"(BTW, how is the environment related to peace? Here I go again/

Questioning the status quo again.)"

Well, there is a war in Iraq, a war brewing in Iran, rhetoric popping
up periodically against Venezuela. All of them are oil producers.
Large producers. The west is dependent on that oil. The west uses more
energy than those that produce the oil. America uses more energy per
capita than any other country. 9 times more than China. (Wikipedia:
over-consumption entry and others are interesting to say the least.)
The oil is finite. The necessary actions that need to be taken to
reduce reliance on the oil that comes from the Arab nations have been
and largely still are scorned by the right in America. There is a
pervasive attitude of entitlement to that oil... and all earth
resources by America and the west. As the oil reserves become depleted
there is a push to control that oil. "our interests in the middle
east" is a euphemism for our demand for oil. To achieve that control
from sovereign nations war has to be provoked if they are unwilling to
allow us that control. "We" meaning the huge American oil corporate
conglomorations and their large stockholders. I'm not naming names,
but we all know who they are.

You sound very ideological. Rather one sided. I thought you might
have missed the irony of your boyfriend driving the humvee. There are
so many Bobs out there who are not part of the vast right wing
conspiracy at whose feet you put all the blame for the oil problem.
And yet they are a part of the problem.

You can defend giving the Nobel Peace Prize to an environmentalist if
you want to (again, this isn't a burning issue of our time), but big
lies start with little lies, and most commonly the little lies start
with slight changes in definition or with euphemisms. In this way, in
one quick, bold stroke, the awards committee equates environmentalism
with peace in many peoples' minds, when in fact they are really
separate things. You sound well versed enough in the shenanigans of
the right to know how shenanigans work on the other side of the fence
too.



This oil consumption contributes to global warming as most of us will
concede. If use of these fossil fuels and the pollution caused by our
over consumption of resources does not decrease there will be more
global warming, less viable habitats, and more competition for
resources. Our arrogant faith in our entitlement breeds resentment
abroad, that resentment will only get stronger as we refuse to cut
down, and refuse to understand the limitations of dog eat dog
capitalism and the benefits of co-operative development and
consumption of goods based on per-capita ratios.
Our land is over farmed by the mega conglomerates whose greed has now
genetically engineered grain that can not reproduce so farmers will
have to always purchase their complete crop starters from the
corporation. This is so sick in so many ways... the dangers of it are
mind numbing.
We export about 1/3 of our grain production. Farmers around the world
buy our grain. Their has already been instances of illegal exports of
this Gen.Eng. grain discovered in our grain to other countries by
their inspectors.
So what does that do to resources, keeping in mind the diminished
capacity of the earth to provide? Who stands to gain?

As those resources diminish the idea of Texas big, living large will
more and more be viewed as obscene and dangerous by the rest of the
world. Resentment of how much more we have and use proportionately to
the rest of the world will grow. The understanding of how we steered
the earth ship for all intents and purposes will eventually turn that
resentment to anger, then rage. Something will need to be done by
others to curb our greed since we won't do it voluntarily.

In fact not only will we refuse to voluntarily cut back on our
consumption, we will continue to make war on those who have what we
want and we will continue to create straw man pretexts to do so.
We will never give up our fixation with unlimited economic growth
which is equivalent to God in the secular religion. (Religion meaning
what has ultimate meaning)

We will continue to believe that our guns, our Humvees, our air
conditioning, our plastic everything, our need to buy bigger, better,
and more, all the time more, our mega-mansions, our over the top
Christmas celebrations... (which have nothing to do with an inner
birth of the sacred- in how we do it I might add.) our dependence on
convenience is our God given right and much more important than the
quality of life of anyone else any where else. "The Other" is a
creation of those who benefit from strife, war. There will be many
"others" we will create as time goes on and we have to "keep our
homeland safe" from the threatening and barbaric hordes we are being
taught to fear.
And all because we will not take into account the diminishing
resources, our over use and reliance of them, and what that does to
the environment. You can't have peace with this scenario. You can't
have peace with a belief in entitlement, God given rights, and dog eat
dog capitalism. It isn't possible. So The environment and trying to
halt its degradation has everything to do with peace.

It strikes me that within our country are relationships that are
microcosmic mirrors of the relationships we have in the world. There
are the "haves... and I don't mean the middle class or even the upper
middle class. These people are lulled into believing they have the
good life by having "things." I'm talking about the mega rich, behind
the scenes operators who feel entitled to have as much as they can get
at the expense of as many as is necessary. The fat cats who run the
world so to speak. There is a CEO who had a 4 million dollar car built
by Ferrari (really!) and he isn't even in the league I'm talking
about.
Well, thats my story.
I'm going to go get some new tinfoil, this hat is starting to wear
out.

Oh, By the way... I am so disappointed in Bob, my imaginary boyfriend,
lol. I just found out he drives a Humvee. (and who knows what else)
I've always thought of them as obscene if not evil... whenever I hear
the word I think of Aahhnold driving his years ago... first time I
ever saw one and I was just disgusted, nauseated with the idea of it.
And now Bob... oh the shame.

On Oct 12, 10:48 pm, Treadleson <treadl...@xxxxxxx> wrote:

Interesting to note that for all the collaboration and friendship btwn
BB and Roberton, Danko et al that BrotherBobnever performed any of
their songs that were exclusively their songs. They had a sturdy
catalogue at one time and while I suspect that BB had more of hand in
fashioning the Big Pink material than we've been told, I obviously
can't prove it. You'd think that over the years, somewhere within the
covers he does, that a King Harvest, an Across the Great Divide, a Rag
Mama Rag...whatever...would've been heard somewhere down along the
line.


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