Re: Baroque Revival


"MJ Starke" <mikestarkeDeleteME@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:vOudncqwCYNGavnZRVn-jw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Steve Latham wrote:
"MJ Starke" <mikestarkeDeleteME@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:FNCdnbbtmcB2bv_ZRVn

[snip]

I must say that leading up to my putting the announcement here we
were warned there might be that type of response.

Yes, always a possibility! :-)

[snip]

Maybe
a little condescension, but never with howling profanity =)

Still, I felt relatively comfortable posting among educated people who
value stylistic diversity in music. That's why I was surprised by Dan's
rude response.

I won't speak for him, or excuse his behavior, just trying to do some
supposition as to why this might trigger such reactions.

[snip]

When I found myself being lampooned at a faculty concert I
took the message to heart.

That's horrific. I'm appalled. I don't know where you were, or when it was
(I might see it if it was in the 60s, or at - and not insult intended - a
"lower escehlon" college) but I can't imagine that kind of behavior. Too
bad. I'm gladyou rose above it though!

[snip]

When I send my scores out to music directors of period ensembles
I tend to hear similar stories. "Gee I've always wanted to
write a complete Baroque concerto, but it would be the end of
career." I just think there is something wrong with that. Note
that they are not saying audiences won't listen or enjoy the music.
They are saying their credibility among their colleagues would
be damaged.

Well, I would say, (and pardon the profanity) f*&^ them. I think there's
just as much of a fallacy in composing something "modern" just to make it
modern! The work needs to be composed the way an artist feels it needs to be
composed!

[snip]

I don't know all the issues modernists have to deal with that
are similar to mine, but I assume they are safe in the
current educational climate.

To some degree yes. More so than in the past. I'm sure that in the 50s,
there were still older professors stuck in their Romantic period ways. I
like to think that educational climates are open to everything - revivalist
and futurist interests. But I still see prejudices against contemporary
music (more than against revivalist attitudes) - not from Faculty, but
adjuncts certainly.



I should be clear that I don't blame the "system" for my
educational experiences. Universities are charged with producing well
rounded musicians capable of working in any venue when called upon.

Sure, I'm a prof. As much as I'd like to start with chant, move to
counterpoint, do tonal theory, and then modern concepts, we still focus on
tonal harmony.

If I had more maturity back in 1974

Ok, still quasi-hippie era :-). But yes, if we all had that!

I might have been able to deal
with it more effectively by just swallowing my pride and getting on
with learning what I was supposed to learn.That's the advice I have
given many times to young people who write to me today. Do the work.
Then when you become part of the system you can be a force for change.

Yes, I'm of the same approach.

[snip]

My
publisher has asked me several times to do more music in the Baroque
style. The things I have done for them are still selling.

Well that right there (though some poeple would not consider sales a
measure, they'd consider it "selling out") proves that you have tapped into
a market (maybe it's a niche market, but I don't mean that negatively). I
guess our problem becomes, we want new things to be accepted, and if
everyone simply writes in existing forms, nothing's really going anywhere.
It has a tendency to "pad" things in favor of what seems like a trend, but
there may be many extra-artistic concerns going on.


And Somebody is still performing it since I do get ASCAP checks. I've done
Baroque style music for background for topics as diverse as back yard bird
house construction to the European discovery of the
Pygmy Rhino. So there are plenty of opportunities out there for what
we are doing. I'll add that I've supplied music for weddings as
well. I've also done music Web Pages and a game or two There really is no
end of possible venues and demand.

Well, I would just note that the same is really true of anything. I think
maybe Dan or other detractors (including myself to varied degrees) might
feel that there's a danger that in promoting one thing, we somehow give less
creedence (or air time, or shelf space, etc.) to other things that may be
just as worthy. While I realize that does not seem like your goal at all,
there is always the danger in it coming off that way. I guess that's really
the fault of the reader in most cases, but again, I'm what I consider to be
fairly non-prejudicial (at least I try) and that announcement didn't read
quite right to me. I think a little refinement might help.

[snip]

Sure. There's a market for Toilet Paper.

That's a little unfair, don't you think? Nobody is passionate
about toilet paper! Very funny, though.

Oh come on Michael. Most musicians say they couldn't live without music.
Could you live without toilet paper? I know I can't. In fact, I'd say it's
one of the hallmarks of modern civilization (not meant as a slam to either
Bidet users or those who eat with only one hand because of, well, you know).
If they put staff lines on the stuff, we'd be in heaven!!!!

[snip]

I can't be held responsible for what people can't bring themselves
to read due to....well.....personal dispositions of whatever kind.
I don't even want to speculate on what the reason for that
rabid response was. I just don't think it was as measured and
reasonable as yours is. That kind of bigotry is disturbing
no matter what side of the issues one might be on. I can't
help but take it a little personally since both Dan and I
are veterans and share a love of music.He's involved in
music education and I volunteer in local middle school and
high school marching bands. Things just shouldn't
be so hateful. Ah well, my skin is thickening the more I write.

Thick skin is good. I think also usenet has that tendency - the tendency
tohit send before one has really thought throuhg te repercussions of their
actions. Then again, Dan might strongly feel one way or another. And you are
right, you can't be responsible for every single person's response to
anything you put out there. I was just chiming in because I hope that,
since you feel I had a more measured response, you might take my criticism a
little more constructively. And I figured if two people were not completely
clear about the announcement, maybe there are others (less vocal mind you
:-) who might not have gotten the whole story - which is doing yourself a
dis-service.

[snip]

It is by nature somewhat restrictive. What's the point of joining a
golfing club if you bring a baseball bat to the meetings?

LOL. Yes, agreed.

But as I
thought was made clear in the announcement,even though we are interested
in forming this particular group focusing on one particular approach
to composition, there is still wide latitude available within the method
that approach is executed. From my standpoint, a modern composer who
starts with a single "inventio" and develops that in keeping within single
affect is composing within what could loosely be called Baroque
conventions. Even with the described restrictions there is unlimited
freedom. Music is like that.

Yes, that's what I thought it was about. However, remember, even I, a
relatively intelligent being familiar with musical enterprises did have to
re-read the announcement. And my sight and memory at this point are still
working well. I think.

[snip]

I am happy to see any "classical" music successful these days.But I
respectfully disagree (to a degree) with you perceived lack of
interest in Early Music. Our Portland Baroque Orchestra is
very successful season after season.

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean that. We have early music groups too. Our Madrigal
concerts are well attended (unfortunatlely though, Collegium is not). I was
talking about modern compositions in "X revival style" being included on
contemporary music programs.

[snip]

As for "re-hashing" historic music, I'm not sure you mean
the performance of historic music or the performance of
new music in Baroque format. I assume the latter since that's
what we are talking about.

No, I mean re-hashing in terms of, someone writing a fugue in the style of
Bach and calling it contemporary. It's more of a direct
influence/homage/obsession, etc. I think (and this is what I think you are
talking about) using ideals - a single affection, fugal technique,
orchestration styles, formal considerations, etc. in amodern composition
with a Baroque (or whatever) flair is certainly good if done well. In fact
it beats the hell out of putting a 12-tone row in a piece just because a
composer thinks they have to to be regarded as "modern" as students often do
upon discovering 12-tone technique for the first time. They think it's the
latest greatest thing not realizing it's really sort of passe in it's
original conception now (but so is Baroque, Classical, Renaissance, etc.). I
think the key is using elements; but not so many elements or so specific
elements as to make it a tracing of a drawing; better I think to make a new
drawing using a quill and ink.



[snip]

If I had
just dropped in without benefit of program notes I would
have guessed the music to be something completely new.

[snip]

I was going to mention this above when I put Renaissance - I think at some
point older music does get old enough (and out of our pulic consciousness)
that more elements can be safely "traced" and still sound fresh. Obviously
this is true of music form other cultures as well. I guess my point is, when
Debussy was enthralled by using ancient modes in his music, he didn't simply
write modal pieces like in the Middle Ages or Renaissance, he incoporated
them into his own style. I bet those modes sounded fresh and exotic then,
but it simply wasn't a re-hash of ancient music. They were incorporated with
other elements that were good music as well. So that's what I hope you're
trying to promote (and I assume that you are based on re-reading the info
and our conversation here). I rather hope you're not trying to promote (and
"trying to promote" is not the best wording, becuase I know you don't have
some ulterior motive - you just want to get like-interested people together)
re-writing Inventions in exactly Bach's style (though most people don't even
have the skills to do so) - but I think that's the fear - some people may
think that, rather than just being like-minded, you do have some ulterior
motive (becuase so many people do). Though I don't believe this to be the
case.



That's good to know. However, I think in this kind of pursuit, you will
find that this existing polarity will return frequently as an issue.

We suspected that. It was confirmed =) It's not what we wanted,
however.

It's OK I think. Good for discourse!

[snip]

Thanks, Steve, for your patient and well considered reply.
Most refreshing.

Sorry to go on so long. I just enjoy discussion and fleshing things out. It
seems to help me in presenting information to students and in working with
others - if I can kind of gauge responses, or ate least be aware of what
typical responses might be (in as non-prejudicial a manner as I can muster),
I can be prepared to approach things from various, hopefully
non-confrontational, perspectives.

See you around,
Steve


.

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