Re: Being and Sound Thought Experiment


"Charles Camilleri" <fraggy@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:op.sw06xzyapbeli9@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>>
>> Schoenberg did not invent Atonality. It was a term that was applied to
>> his
>> music by a critic.
>
> did not invent the word, or the musical concept?

Neither. I qoute from the New Harvard Dictionary of Music "At first used to
describe the characteristics of certain pioneering works byu Schoenberg,
Webern and Berg..." That is, someone else invented the word to describe
Schoenberg's music. Schoenberg preferred the word "Pantonality".

continuing "historically, atonality appeared VERY GRADUALLY (emph. mine) in
Western Art music. Even in the 18th century examples are common of tonality
destablized by successive modulation or temporarily suspended by chromatic
operations such as sequences of diminished 7th chords. Bach's Chromatic
Fantasy is a familiar instance".



>>> Now this is very different to a language or a set of sound symbols
>>> developing organically from within the tradition.
>>
>> Your argument seems to be that because atonality is "made up", it is
>> somehow
>> "unnatural" and therefore not good.
>
> not at all, again your inference, can you find where i have stated this?

True, I did infer that. It was when you said that the original authors of
the Death of Tonality articles "do have a point" - but because of the lack
of focus of your response at that point, it was difficult to determine your
stance, argument, or explanation.

>>
>>>
>>> How many books on theory did Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms
>>> write?
>>
>> Why does it matter?
>
> matters to the point in total i have been trying to make, as a fragment,
> how about i give you my mothers recipe for chicken soup

What kind of answer is that? What are you trying to support?

>
>>
>>>
>>> Do nomadic cultures develop the same relationship to language, or the
>>> sounds that fill their environment?
>>>
>>> Going from what my ears tell me, the answer is definitely no, so
>>> therefore
>>> if I introduce complex and dense harmonic progressions to a child from
>>> within a nomadic culture that is used to simple spaced out drones as in
>>> Australian aboriginal music, the relationship to these musical
>>> parameters
>>> would totally be inappropriate to the child's sense of physical space,
>>> this has nothing to do with evolution, the child will simply not
>>> respond.
>>
>> Ummm, that's what I said.
>
>
> I dont understand you

Obviously.

>>
>>>
>>> Now I have posited this question before, and again off course it is
>>> totally impossible to test, but if Mozart had been kidnapped from
>>> Austria
>>> at the height of his powers and transported to the Northern Territory in
>>> Australia in 1781 could he still have kept composing in the same musical
>>> language?
>>
>> Of course.
>
> well he would be one strange dude, next you will be telling me that if we
> transported John Coltrane with his tenor saxophone that he would just melt
> into the environment yeah like garlic goes with milkshakes

I did not say that. I said, he may continue with his current style, choose
to incorporate some of his surroundings, or totally accept his surroundings.

>
>
>>> My answer would be no, because there would be no point to write that
>>> kind
>>> of music with the principles of tonality of the 18th century in a
>>> country
>>> with a totally different culture and tradition and a country that has a
>>> totally different relationship to physical space.
>>
>> That's ridiculous. He could have kept doing what he was doing, or he
>> could
>> have also chosen to accept influences and incorporate them into his own
>> style, or he could have switched into an aboriginal music if he wanted.
>> It's
>> no different from his language. If you did the same thing, could he still
>> speak German. You say no, because there'd be no point. Well, he might
>> need
>> to communicate, but he wouldn't be forced to leanr the language if he
>> lived
>> as a hermit, or he may have learned enough to get by, or he may have
>> learned
>> to speak fluently (withouth being able to write necessarily). It's
>> another
>> non sequiter conclusion.
>
> accept that he would be totally isolated, what good would his musical
> language be to him? who would he communicate with? what would be the
> point?

It's "except", not "accept".

There is your major mis-assumption Charles. Music does not HAVE to written
for communication. The point would be that he would write music because he
wants to write music. Many, many musicians write pieces they never intend to
be heard. Besides the fact that, even so, one could live in one environment
and write music for a different culture. There's no reason Mozart couldn't
have lived in aboriginal Australia and written in the style of 1781 Vienna,
and simply worked in isolation, shipping the pieces back. Him being locked
in a little room in isolation would make no difference if the room were in
Vienna or Nashville.

>>
>>>
>>> Now what does evolution have to do with this, let us say Mozart married
>>> an
>>> aboriginal girl and had children, what would he teach his children, the
>>> culture of his wife, or the traditions of 18th century Europe?
>>
>> Either ot both. It would be up to them. My gueds is, as much as I like
>> Mozart, that Western Europeans and their Bretheren have a tendency to
>> force
>> their ideals and values on other cultures so the Aboriginal customs would
>> have been surpressed in favor of "culture".
>
> yeah Australia's history is beautiful Steve, try reading about it sometime

Since you did not know when the Northern territory was established, it might
do you some good.

>>
>>>
>>> Obviously the harmonic and melodic language of Europe is totally out of
>>> place in Australia, I personally believe it is still out of place now,
>>> and
>>> I live in Australia.
>>
>> In European descneded Australia, or Aboriginal Australia?
>
> Aboriginal culture is 40,000 years old, whats this about Europe look at a
> map of Australia

You said Mozart. That's Europe.

>>
>>>
>>> So you see the concept that a child will be able to learn any language
>>> and
>>> that all is needed is the child to hear the language does not tell the
>>> full story.
>>
>> What full story?
>
> do i really need to explain this?

Yes.

>>
>>>
>>> Consciousness and mind and therefore the ear that is in relationship
>>> determines authenticity and not evolution
>>
>> You're spouting out words again in sentences that have no coherence.
>> What is
>> this thing authenticity that you're trying to prove. That there's only
>> one
>> "authentic" music?
>>
>> STeve
>>
>>
> no not at all, but that i even have to answer makes me wonder if you even
> read my posts
>

I think I will take you up on your suggestion, and not read any more.

Steve


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