Re: Copyright infringement

On May 21, 11:27 am, bisrob...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
On 21 Maj, 16:01, maready <dab...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:



On May 21, 5:19 am, bisrob...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

On 21 Maj, 10:45, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_drik...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

bisrob...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

No, you're wrong.  Of course we are hurt by the sites with lossless
(although, to judge from the above comment, there isn't much to
lose :-) ) uploadings.  But likewise we are hurt by the medium-quality
or even low-quality offerings.  TD states it correctly:
1)  WE have paid for the recording and release.
2)  Someone else takes it and offers it for free.

Do you have any numbers about *how many* customers of your product don't buy
your product because of this?

How that should not hurt any business model with any product is beyond
my grasp.

It depends on the numbers involved, I think.
I cannot believe your business model depends on the 10 - or maybe even 20 -
people who download _something_ that has been mentioned here. While _the same
people_ (each of them!) have bought thousands and thousands of recordings in a
normal way.

We're going round in circles.  This has been asked and answered.  No,
I do not have any fresh numbers.  I know for a fact that there are/
were? sites out there, where the entire BIS Bach Collegium Cantata
cycle could be downloaded with a single click (that's 45 CD:s so
far).  I know from IFPI that some BIS CD:s have been downloaded in the
hundreds from The Pirate Bay.
From where do YOU get your 10, maybe even 20??  we're talking informed
guesses here.  I can - unfortunately - follow the demise of my selling
figures very clearly.  They *seem* to have a connection with on how
many pirate sites one can find them.  I don't believe that the music
appreciation in the world has diminished, nor the wish to listen to
music.  we basically release the same quality and repertoire year
after year.  yet our turn-over continues to diminish, starting when
downloading became possible with increasing internet speed etc.  Our
selling figures are most declining in countries, where Internet is
most popular.  Yes, of course other things fight for the customers'
dollars and time, but I find a very clear and direct correlation
between these 2 circumstances.  and we're fighting very hard to stay
afloat.
When we and our colleagues die or give up, what, then, will you have
to steal?  The music-loving but not spending community is sawing off
the branch on which you're sitting.

Robert

I just bought 4 volumes of the Bis Bach Collegium Cantata series from
Academy Records, a used CD store in New York City.  I have added these
to two volumes from the same series that I bought from Virgin
Megastore in New York City before it shut down.  I now buy all of my
physical CDs from Academy, as there is only one "new" CD store left in
NYC (J & R Music World) and I don't get there very often.  Can you
explain to me how my buying 4 BIS CDs from a used record store is
different than borrowing a copy from a friend and making a copy of
it?  In either case, neither BIS, the artists or the composer (if we
were discussing, say, the Boulez Cantatas) receives a penny.

Also, I live in a so-called "cultural capital".  I discovered the BIS
series of CPE Bach clavichord recordings by Miklos Spanyi back in 1998
or so, when Tower records still existed, because a salesperson
recommended them.  Given that there is only one retail store with a
classical section left in this "cultural capital", where do you think
the other possible purchasers of these two terrific CD series are
going to either see them, or purchase them?  On Amazon, perhaps.
Where will they hear them and become interested in them?  On a
classical radio station?  The last time there was a classical radio
station that played anything moderately interesting, I was too young
to afford LPs, so I simply taped cassettes of the air.  Remember "Home
Taping is Killing Music"?

If record companies make available lossless downloads on Amazon and
ITunes at a reasonable price (I.E. $5.99 or so --- after all, there
are no manufacturing costs for the sound-carrier or packaging) perhaps
they will land on their feet again, as they did after the Music
Cassette was introduced.

All of this is beside the point since, unlike so called "sharity"
blogs, nobody on this news group has posted a lossless copy of an in
print commerical CD.  If someone uploads a portion (or all of) of the
giant Praga Richter box, which I once owned and foolishly sold, my
downloading this will not cause any financial hardship to either Praga
or the Richter estate.  Only an insane person would fork over the $699
that an Amazon reseller is asking for what is apparently the only
remaining copy of this item.  If I did send that reseller the money,
the only person profiting would be that brazen reseller.

Last week, a friend sent me a file containing Gidon Kremer playing a
violin and orchestra piece by Xenakis, with Jonathan Nott conducting,
on the BIS label.  It is an amazing performance, even at 256kb.  I
would love to own the physical object, or be able to download a
lossless version.  Up until recently, I would have run off to Tower or
Virgin looking for the CD.  I am not going to pay Amazon $20.99 for a
"special import" copy.  However, I am considering buying one of the
lesser-priced used copies offered by the Amazon re-sellers. (I have
not bought a new CD from Amazon in a long time --- there is always a
cheaper used version.)  Do you receive any royalties from the
reseller?  Shouldn't somebody be going after them?  I mean, who is
hurting the record companies the most --- downloaders, used stores,
friends making copies for friends?  I recently paid $9.99 for each of
two volumes of Ives Violin Sonatas originally released as Folkways LPs
in the early 60s.  These were lossless downloads on the excellent
Folkways site (they offer a choice of lossless or mp3 for heir entire
back catalog.  Of course, they are subsidized by the Smithsonian
Institute.)  I also recently downloaded 3 CDs from the Deutsche
Grammophon Web shop, just because their site is so user-friendly (they
have finally found a use for the "cover flow" gimmick, and boy is it
is seductive.)  Perhaps there are lessons to be learned here.

In any case, I suspect that, with the demise of the retail store,
most fans of "niche" musics (like classical music) get the majority of
their music either as used CDs (and LPs, in my case) or as downloads.
As for listening to a 192kbp recording of Kavakos playing Sibelius
live with Vanska, it will (or will not) have exactly the same effect
that hearing my favorite rock band's new album on "free-form" radio
did when I was a kid.  Either I'll run out and buy the "real thing"
out of excitement and to get the packaging and fidelity, or I'll keep
my cassette tape (then) or audiofile (now) and buy something that
excites me more.  In any case, I had never heard of Kavakos, and had
no idea that Vanska (whose BIS Lahti Orchestra Sibelius discs I bought
back when they came out) was now leading an American orchestra, and
with such interesting results.  Seems to me that, while it is hard to
predict the movements of any mass of consumers, no matter how large
(or small), that this constitutes free advertising, not piracy. (As
has been pointed out, how can it constitute piracy --- the BIS
recording is a studio recording that shares the same soloist and
conductor and has a different orchestra.  The concert recording is not
available from BIS)- Dölj citerad text -

- Visa citerad text -

Dear Maready,

thanks for your long and thoughtful post.
You make a lot of sense, but you miss out on a few important points.

To start with:  you are comparing the purchase of a used copy of a BIS
CD with the downloading of the same, illegally.  The obvious point is
of course that we get an income from neither, but we did get one from
the copy you bought, and when you have bought it, noone else can - the
"original" it is gone.  With the illegal downloading, the "ortiginal"
still exists and can be downloaded by zillions of people.

Then:  I am the first to deplore the demise of the informed shop.  I
am sure that downloading has its part of the blame for that, too.  But
you can easily get BIS through Amazon anywhere, used or new, plus a
number of other sites, like Arkiv, which is really extremely good and
user-friendly.  Plus the usual download-sites, like eMusic, iTunes,
Rhapsody etc etc.  So to maintain that the supply is bad is
overstating the case indeed.

Next:  yes, I have already admitted several times that the labels'
case is worse, if the product has been deleted.  But that doesn't
apply to BIS, since we have every tone we ever recorded ion stock on
the shelves for immediate delivery.

Next:  No, it isn't the same performance, but i maintain that if one
has illegally downloaded a "superb" account of the Sibelius Concerto
with Kavakos, conducted by Osmo Vänskä, there is at least a very good
risk that that person will not fork out whatever it costs to buy a
commercial recording of the same piece with the same 2 main artists.

And finally, I cannot help myself:  if there were a CD of Xenakis's
Violin Concerto, played by Gidon Kremer, I would myself run out and
buy it at 20.99 or any price.  There isn't.  This recording doesn't
exist, but we do have an excellent recording, played by Irvine
Arditti, conducted by Jonathan Nott...

Best - Robert

Yes, that's the one --- Irvine Arditti and Jonathan Nott --- and I
recommend it highly to anyone that has an interest in Xenakis or even
to those who don't. You might be surprised what an approachable
composer Xenakis could be. If this sounds interesting, go to Amazon,
ArchivMusic, MDT, or Emusic and buy a new or used CD copy, or an mp3-
quality download. If you see it in your local used book and/or record
shop, snap it up. If a friend offers to make you a cassette or a CD-
R, why not take a chance? And if it pops up on an internet blog, or
you search Google and see a Rapidshare or Mediafire listing for it,
you can download it for free, and either keep it or put it in the
trash. If you DO download it for free from an internet "peer",
perhaps you will want to buy this CD, one that you weren't sure was
"for you" (you may not have known it even existed!) And if you don't
want to buy the same piece again, by the same performers, why not
check out the CDs of Xenakis' other music on Timpani, Col Legno, Mode,
Hyperion and many other fine small companies? Or listen to some of
the wonderful broadcast recordings of the composer's music, ranging
from historic 1950s world premieres to those of more recent vintage?
All of these are potentially available to anyone with access to a
computer and a search engine.

Yes, it would be nice to hear Gidon Kremer play the piece, although
Irvine Arditti is a swell violinist (and quartet leader) with personal
connections to the late Mr. Xenakis. Although Kremer doesn't play as
much "contemporary" music as he used to (and didn't record this piece
for BIS back in 1996), there IS a fine DGG recording of the piece
Luigi Nono wrote for (and in collaboration) with him. It is in print
and available from all the places listed above, as well as the
Deutsche Grammophon Web Shop. "Illegal" downloads of it seem to pop
up for it as well, whenever I do a Google search for either Luigi Nono
or Gidon Kremer.
.

Relevant Pages

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    (rec.music.classical.recordings)
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    (rec.music.classical.recordings)
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