Re: Mystery French Horn Player

On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 18:12:34 -0700 (PDT), Michael Schaffer
<ms1000@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Aug 29, 8:49 pm, ansermetniac <ansermetn...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 17:45:29 -0700 (PDT), Michael Schaffer





<ms1...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Aug 29, 8:43 pm, ansermetniac <ansermetn...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 17:32:12 -0700 (PDT), Michael Schaffer

<ms1...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Aug 29, 8:17 pm, ansermetniac <ansermetn...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 17:03:17 -0700 (PDT), Michael Schaffer

<ms1...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Aug 29, 6:52 pm, CharlesSmith <sigma.onl...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 29 Aug, 23:46, ansermetniac <ansermetn...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 15:22:44 -0700 (PDT), CharlesSmith

<sigma.onl...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 29 Aug, 22:11, Michael Schaffer <ms1...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Aug 29, 3:21 am, CharlesSmith <sigma.onl...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On 29 Aug, 01:43, ansermetniac <ansermetn...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

http://www.mediafire.com/?rwjww4xuqn2

28 second flac

Enjoy

Abbedd

Rather a steely central tone, especially in loud passages, with a
velvety sheen. I think it's an American, playing with the bell against
his clothing. However there's a lack of any warmth in the tone.

The piece is well played - very noble. Stylistically it's very like
the performance on the only CD I have of this work - Bernstein/NYPO
1960 - but the NYPO player has a much richer tone.

The recording quality (or lack thereof) plus the massive artifacting
might play a role here, too. I find it interesting how people describe
music in words. For me, the adjectives "velvety" and "steely" have
slightly different connotations, but I think we are describing the
same thing, the difference is not in aural perception, but in choice
of vocabulary. "Steely central tone", on the other hand, appears to me
to describe exactly what I call "slender and focused".

I had read your comments before writing my own. I intended 'steely' as
harder than 'focused'. Gerd Seifert (as discussed a few weeks ago) is
'focused' (except when he overblows to 'blaring'), but this is much
harder. Velvety was only part of my attempt to describe the sheen,
which as you say has something muted about it.

We both hear
that the sound is somewhat muted, but I am not sure if that is
achieved by playing with the bell against the clothing - a number of
American horn players have shown me how some playing schools darken
the tone by covering the bell with the hand more than other schools of
playing.

Some cover the bell opening to darken the tone, but can also choose to
hold the instrument close and deflect the sound against their
clothing, and this may be how the sheen is achieved - so the
instrument has a basic hard trumpety sound, and then the player takes
off the edge with hand and cloth.

What do you mean by "lack of any warmth"?

Lacking in the intermediate frequencies that would produce that rich
sound I like to hear from a horn. I thought this was similar to your
"not so much body" comment. I don't know how the (obviously good)
player manages to lose these frequencies. Of course they may have been
cleaned out by the engineer.

Here's a snip from the Bernstein 1960 recording (from the CD)? Who is
playing? Despite the different timbre, acoustic and noises off I hear
a similarity between the two players.

http://www.savefile.com/files/1758006

It is the same rercording, moron

Abnebdd
_________
E.A.F.E.
Everybody's a fuckin' expert- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I thought so, but extremely well disguised if I may say so.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Indeed. Even comparing them A-B in small segments, it is difficult to
hear that it is the same recording. You really have to listen for such
variable detail as varying softness of attacks, which degree of
vibrato he uses in which part of the note, the way the slurs are
articulated, and also, extraneous noise coming from the audience and
other parts of the stage to verify that they are the same recording.
ansermetniac's clip is totally screwed up. I think I understand better
now what you meant by "steely" because his clip has a thinnish,
metallic quality to it which the original, unfucked-with recording
doesn't have to that degree - in some places in ansermetniac's clip,
it almost sounds as if the horn has a mute.
Interesting though that we both heard the exact same qualities and
elements of the sound, even though we may use different terms to
describe these elements - and even though the Mystery clip is so bad
sonically.
But we poinpointed the style and origin of the horn player despite
these additional problems, so I think we can both give ourselves one
point.
The loss of intermediate frequencies and the resultant "flatness" and
"mutedness" of this type of horn sound is mostly produced by the
slightly less conical bore of American horns and the wider, shallower
mouthpieces used. That makes the horns much easier and safer to play,
but there is a distinct loss of sound quality associated with that. It
also gives the sound a little bit of an "euphonium element", if you
know what I mean.

Your clueslessness is hilarious.Thanks for the laugh

Abbedd
_________
E.A.F.E.
Everybody's a fuckin' expert- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Now that the Mystery clip has been revealed, you can join the
discussion, and tell us what your impressions are, and what you think
characterizes this sound musically and technically. As we have seen,
it is possible to discuss these things in words, even if it is
dificult sometimes. At least in theory. In practice, we already know
that you don't have to say anything about these subjects.
You could tell us though, how did you manage to *** up the sound so
much? What did you do to the clip? And what's going on with the
artifacting?

If you think Chambers is revealed on the cd better than my post,you
are more ill than I thought, and more ignorant

Abbedd
_________
E.A.F.E.
Everybody's a fuckin' expert- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes, you are right, the massive artifacting and the thinning of the
sound really enhance his playing...

Musical Moron--my professional,legally expert opinion

Abbedd
_________
"When a true genius appears in this world, you may know him by this
sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
Jonathan Swift- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks for this detailed and informative reply. For most of us,
describing musical qualities in words is a difficult task, but to you,
it comes so easy, it seems to be second nature.

I am glad to find out that this horn player actually sounded much
better than in your clip. It is a very characteristic sound which
Charles and me pointed out and located rather easily. I am not
entirely sure though if that is a really apt horn sound for orchestral
playing. It belongs more in a brass band, and it probably works great
in music like Bernstein's, but for the largest part of the relevant
repertoires, be they French, German, Russian or from other stylistic
spectra, it is really not an ideal sound.
That reminds me that the probably worst recording of a Bruckner
symphonie I have ever heard is the 9th with the NYP and Bernstein
(late 60s or so). Does your horn hero play on that recording, too? The
NYP brass sounds like a student brass band sightreading the music in
this recording.

Musical moron

Joe Singer was the principal on the Bruckner 9

Abbedd
_________
E.A.F.E.
Everybody's a fuckin' expert
.