Re: FEMALES (not "Girls") in the Vienna Philharmonic (Was women in orchestras, whatever)

"Michael Schaffer" <ms1000@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1136595799.352985.244890@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Dan Koren wrote:
>> "Michael Schaffer" <ms1000@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:1136430986.589858.85180@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >
>> >
>> > And I didn't mean any offence, but I found your comment slightly
>> > disrespectful towards the WP. Since you were in the business yourself,
>> > you know very well that it is any orchestra's right to chose its
>> > members and extras, and you also know that there are many factors which
>> > contribute to those choices, and not all of these are "objective". I
>> > find the policy towards women in that orchestra pretty strange myself.
>> > But it is their orchestra, so they can do whatever they like.
>>
>> A rather interesting line of argument....
>>
>> And if one follows it to its logical conclusion, one
>> could justify pretty much every crime and aberation
>> committed by mankind, e.g.:
>>
>> Slavery -- they were *their* slaves bought for good
>> money, so....
>>
>> Concentration camps and gas ovens -- it was *their*
>> country, etc, etc....
>
> Which was indeed the attitude many at that time had.


Well, at least we agree on something....


> A lot of Jewish people sought asylum in other countries,
> but it was extremely hard for many to get visas.


Thanks for reminding me.


> Many other countires didn't see the need to help them,
> even later when reports of death camps had been confirmed.
>
> I knew a gentleman in Berlin who was Jewish and his family
> tried to get out for years. They finally, in 1939, got a
> visa to go to China and while they were in India changing
> ships, WW2 broke out and they were detained because they
> were German citizens. The argument that they were Jewish
> refugees didn't impress the British authorities at all.
> They finally let them go after several weeks.


At least they were lucky enough to escape.


>> Clearly the notion that ownership makes right does
>> not belong to this century, Mr. Schaffer. Or maybe
>> it still does in Germany?
>
> Since Germany is one of the, or maybe the, country in
> Europe today which grants asylum to the most refugees,
> I think it's pretty safe to say that the majority
> opinion there is different.


But is it really the majority opinion, or just a bit of
political corectness that has been enshrined in law and
is by now too deeply set to be challenged openly? My own
(admittedly superficial) impression is that many Europeans
are not too fond of immigrants, and could really care less.


> Part of that policy is based on the memory of the
> dictatorship and the fact that in that situation, not
> much was done to help the Germans of Jewish background
> as well as other persecuted groups.



> And that is exactly why I think the WP situation is
> fairly strange, but not such a big issue.


It is not a BIG ISSUE in the sense that it only affects a
very small number of people in a direct way. It is however
important because it is one of the visible faces Austrian
culture presents to the world, and it is an ugly one.


> Because there are still a lot of much more massive problems
> going on in the world, civil wars with large numbers of
> victims and genocides are still happening in many places.


See above.


> If people are really concerned about such issues, there
> are a lot more burning problems that need to be addressed. I
> think the attitude towards women members in the orchestra
> will change even in Vienna in the very near future since
> they have a lot of younger players in the orchestra who
> are probably less conservative than the older stone heads.


I beg to disagree -- such matters can (and should) be fixed
by fiat. This is precisely the type of discrimination that
in many countries is downright illegal. Doesn't Austria
have anti-discrimination laws? If it does, they should be
enforced for the WP no less than they are enforced for any
plant or office.



dk



.

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