Re: Why do you like Mozart's music?


Lena wrote:
> Michael Schaffer wrote:
> > Lena wrote:
> > > Michael Schaffer wrote:
>
> I'm snipping, and this is my final re-iteration of this particular
> phrase bla bla point...
>
> > > You talk about speech here: [...]
>
> > > > and many German composers write themes which reflect the phrase
> > > > structure of German, which [...] is often very long phrases with a
> > > > lot of side clauses and inserts, [...] and there are a lot of
> > > > examples for this kind of theme, for instance the 2nd movement of
> > > > Beethoven's 5th is a very good example for a them which very
> > > > obviously reflects the typical "phrase melody" of the German
> > > > language.
>
> [...]
>
> > > > The theme from the second movement of Beethoven 5 is based on a
> > > > popular Viennese song of the time, BTW, so it is no surprise that
> > > > you can hear clear echoes of the German language in that melody.
> > >
> > > It would be a surprise... Because this theme consists mainly of two
> > > things: a simple rhythmic pattern (a dance snippet) and some pattern
> > > manipulation techniques; neither have fundamentally anything to do
> > > with words.
>
> MS:
>
> > Then let it be a surprise, because I didn't make that up.
>
> Nooooo - it would be a surprise if the song had any influence on the
> presence of "echoes of the German language" in the phrase structure of
> Beethoven's theme. (It's *not* a surprise that Beethoven uses snippets
> of Viennese song/dance; elsewhere, too, Op. 110 has a famous example.)
>
> > I have the music and words and an article about it somewhere, let me
> > see if I can find it.
>
> It would be interesting, though it doesn't make much difference here.
>
> > If you do, [speak German] it would be really hard for me to
> > understand why you don't see this connection,
>
> The connection between German sentences often having subsidiary
> clauses and this theme? Of course I see the connection, but - I have
> to start getting blunt here, sorry - that connection is an obvious and
> superficial one, and it can't really be used to argue that there is an
> advantage to being German when performing German music. I speak
> German, and I'm not being anti-German. This is simply, as you say,
> "how it is."
>
> So let me repeat, *for the last time*:
>
> (1) Complicated phrases are not restricted to either German or German
> composers. Non-German composers use the same musical methods, and
> non-German speakers use complex sentences. (Just take a look at
> Thomas Hardy, or several worthy contributors to this ng.)

Of course they do, but the difference is HOW people phrase their
sentences and how much weight they give to its parts, what little
nuances they typically use to underline a point, a detail, etc. That is
something which is very typical and a deeply burried layer in any
language, so deep that often even speakers of a foreign language who
speak grammatically completely correctly and without any trace of
accent "betray" their origin by the way they use these. (Simple
example: English people say "who ARE you", German people say "WER bist
du?").

> (2) Concentrating on the fact that musical phrases are often strung
> together and interpolated (somewhat like phrases in German and other
> languages) misses the point that musical phrases have much more
> structure than spoken language constructions and that they are
> constructed with operations which have no counterpart in spoken
> languages.
>
> So we're back where we started. Knowing German gives no advantage in
> understanding the phrase structure of this kind of music; and speaking
> German gives no advantage in performing it either, at least on this
> particular count.
>
> > It's mostly an undertone which I find hard to describe in words. I
> > could probably illustrate it [...]
> > It also has something to do with the long-windedness of such themes
> > with a lot of sidethoughts which is a typical German thing.
>
> It doesn't have to be an undertone or a "feel". Things exactly like
> this are talked about in musicology. (Even the connections between
> the Pastoral storm and a real storm can be discussed with something
> other than "feel"!)
>
> If you had some of these concepts in hand, your argument wouldn't have
> to be nebulous at all. (And, you might actually see why, on this
> issue, you're wrong.)

Don't tell a native speaker he is wrong about something which for him
is so evident about his own language. Rather be a little self-critical.
Maybe your understanding of German isn't as good as you think it is. I
speak English very well, I think, but I wouldn't lecture a native
speaker pointing out such things to me (apart from the fact that I hear
these different phrase melodies very clearly, so nobody would have to
point them out or even convince me of that). I may not be able to
explain what I mean very well, but I am sure other people already have
looked into these things and described them in better and more eloquent
ways.

> >> What's Viennese here is not any connection to the 'phrase rhythms'
> >> of any local language, but the ubiquitous $#$*$& 3/8 and 3/4
> >> thing... (And the art music vs. ethnic dance forms debate is
> >> another matter, from which I will excuse myself today.)
>
> > Yes, please! Vienna doesn't move exclusively in 3/4. Such an
> > assumption would be silly
>
> You're being rather literal-minded (not to mention that your sentence
> is a non-sequitur :) ) - but let's forget that.
>
> I'll be happy to discuss the finer points of this issue with anyone
> who offers such points (there were some in some post by Ian P., if I
> can now ever find it) but an endless repetition of simple ideas is,
> as you've noted yourself, sort of painful.
>
> Lena
>
> PS.
>
> > do you speak German?
>
> Yes. Do you know any music theory? :)

Yes, I studied a lot of theory and analysis at the music academy, along
with performing. Theory classes for the performers at conservatories
are often superficial and seen as a necessary nuisance that the
students have to sit through before they can go back to practicing.
Another reason why I went to study in Weimar because it was still very
much an "old-school" system, less a "modern" free education thing where
the students pick and chose. We had very extensive theory and analysis,
formal analysis etc. classes with some pretty hardcore teachers. Same
about music history and other related subjects. It was definitely worth
it.

.

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