Re: Why do you like Mozart's music?


Michael Schaffer wrote:
> Lena wrote:
> > Michael Schaffer wrote:

I'm snipping, and this is my final re-iteration of this particular
phrase bla bla point...

> > You talk about speech here: [...]

> > > and many German composers write themes which reflect the phrase
> > > structure of German, which [...] is often very long phrases with a
> > > lot of side clauses and inserts, [...] and there are a lot of
> > > examples for this kind of theme, for instance the 2nd movement of
> > > Beethoven's 5th is a very good example for a them which very
> > > obviously reflects the typical "phrase melody" of the German
> > > language.

[...]

> > > The theme from the second movement of Beethoven 5 is based on a
> > > popular Viennese song of the time, BTW, so it is no surprise that
> > > you can hear clear echoes of the German language in that melody.
> >
> > It would be a surprise... Because this theme consists mainly of two
> > things: a simple rhythmic pattern (a dance snippet) and some pattern
> > manipulation techniques; neither have fundamentally anything to do
> > with words.

MS:

> Then let it be a surprise, because I didn't make that up.

Nooooo - it would be a surprise if the song had any influence on the
presence of "echoes of the German language" in the phrase structure of
Beethoven's theme. (It's *not* a surprise that Beethoven uses snippets
of Viennese song/dance; elsewhere, too, Op. 110 has a famous example.)

> I have the music and words and an article about it somewhere, let me
> see if I can find it.

It would be interesting, though it doesn't make much difference here.

> If you do, [speak German] it would be really hard for me to
> understand why you don't see this connection,

The connection between German sentences often having subsidiary
clauses and this theme? Of course I see the connection, but - I have
to start getting blunt here, sorry - that connection is an obvious and
superficial one, and it can't really be used to argue that there is an
advantage to being German when performing German music. I speak
German, and I'm not being anti-German. This is simply, as you say,
"how it is."

So let me repeat, *for the last time*:

(1) Complicated phrases are not restricted to either German or German
composers. Non-German composers use the same musical methods, and
non-German speakers use complex sentences. (Just take a look at
Thomas Hardy, or several worthy contributors to this ng.)

(2) Concentrating on the fact that musical phrases are often strung
together and interpolated (somewhat like phrases in German and other
languages) misses the point that musical phrases have much more
structure than spoken language constructions and that they are
constructed with operations which have no counterpart in spoken
languages.

So we're back where we started. Knowing German gives no advantage in
understanding the phrase structure of this kind of music; and speaking
German gives no advantage in performing it either, at least on this
particular count.

> It's mostly an undertone which I find hard to describe in words. I
> could probably illustrate it [...]
> It also has something to do with the long-windedness of such themes
> with a lot of sidethoughts which is a typical German thing.

It doesn't have to be an undertone or a "feel". Things exactly like
this are talked about in musicology. (Even the connections between
the Pastoral storm and a real storm can be discussed with something
other than "feel"!)

If you had some of these concepts in hand, your argument wouldn't have
to be nebulous at all. (And, you might actually see why, on this
issue, you're wrong.)

>> What's Viennese here is not any connection to the 'phrase rhythms'
>> of any local language, but the ubiquitous $#$*$& 3/8 and 3/4
>> thing... (And the art music vs. ethnic dance forms debate is
>> another matter, from which I will excuse myself today.)

> Yes, please! Vienna doesn't move exclusively in 3/4. Such an
> assumption would be silly

You're being rather literal-minded (not to mention that your sentence
is a non-sequitur :) ) - but let's forget that.

I'll be happy to discuss the finer points of this issue with anyone
who offers such points (there were some in some post by Ian P., if I
can now ever find it) but an endless repetition of simple ideas is,
as you've noted yourself, sort of painful.

Lena

PS.

> do you speak German?

Yes. Do you know any music theory? :)

.

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