Re: Why do you like Mozart's music?


Lena wrote:
> Michael Schaffer wrote:
> > Lena wrote:
> > > Michael Schaffer wrote:
>
>
> > > > > In the Beethoven symphony 5/ii example, I'm not sure if you mean the
> > > > > first 8 bars, but if you do, that's not actually a complex phrase
> > > > > construction. It's a short theme built out of a single subphrase with
> > > > > musical means very typical of the time (phrase extension, variation,
> > > > > and fragmentation). The theme also uses a rhythmic trick; it
> > > > > dislocates a pattern wrto to the barline in an unexpected way. Speech
> > > > > or writing generally doesn't have any of this accuracy (although
> > > > > writing as art can do similar things).
> > > >
> > > > I didn't say music his music imitated speeach in exact ways. But the
> > > > connection with language of the tone and phrase structure of a lot of
> > > > his music is very obvious and striking.
> > >
> > > But that's just it. The connection is not exact. Or close, like some
> > > transcription of a cuckoo call. So what you're offering is an
> > > interpretation. There's only one problem: the speech thing omits as
> > > much of the music as it explains.
> > >
> > > > It doesn't really matter how a theme is constructed,
> > >
> > > (With Classical era composers, it does matter... but let's ignore
> > > that.)
> > >
> > > > it's more the general "feel" and tone, the ups
> > > > and downs, the little inserted sidethoughts, etc. All that is very
> > > > obvious if you understand the language really well,
> > >
> > > Wait a minute. If you do have a decent idea of the feel of German
> > > phrase flow, *and* you have looked at the score carefully, you may
> > > start realizing that the correspondence between the two is not quite
> > > that obvious and striking.
> > >
> > > Look at this theme in the score: the phrase construction, the
> > > articulation, the prevalence of dotted notes, the presence of an
> > > underlying pulse. Take all those into account in your speech
> > > interpretation. So, if this is a German speaking, it's a German with
> > > a curious 3/8 lilt to his speech, a German who is out of breath, a
> > > German who keeps making odd skipping sounds with his vowels. He also
> > > seems to be engaged in a process of repeating himself, as if he were
> > > entered in an auto-parody contest.
> >
>
>
> > Where did I ever say it was a direct representation of speeach
> > patterns?
>
> You talk about speech here:
>
> > I didn't say music his music imitated speeach in exact ways. But the
> > connection with language of the tone and phrase structure of a lot of
> > his music is very obvious and striking.
>
> and here:
>
> > and many German composers write themes which reflect the phrase
> > structure of German, which [...] is often very long phrases with a
> > lot of side clauses and inserts, [...] and there are a lot of
> > examples for this kind of theme, for instance the 2nd movement of
> > Beethoven's 5th is a very good example for a them which very
> > obviously reflects the typical "phrase melody" of the German
> > language.
>
> [Beethoven Symphony 5/ii, first 8 bars. The remaining bars are left
> as an easy exercise for the reader. :):) ]
>
> > But let me say this: didn't it occur to you that it might have more to
> > do with the sung language rather than the spoken language, we are
> > talking about music after all, and that there is a very direct
> > connection between spoken and sung language?
>
> Not such a direct connection, necessarily. Songs are frequently in
> strongly patterned musical forms whose original main use may not be
> language/speech but something else (movement); and the needs of
> that something else override words.
>
> > The theme from the second movement of Beethoven 5 is based on a
> > popular Viennese song of the time, BTW, so it is no surprise that
> > you can hear clear echoes of the German language in that melody.
>
> It would be a surprise... Because this theme consists mainly of two
> things: a simple rhythmic pattern (a dance snippet) and some pattern
> manipulation techniques; neither have fundamentally anything to do
> with words.

Then let it be a surprise, because I didn't make that up. I have the
music and words and an article about it somewhere, let me see if I can
find it. Your detail analysis as such is not wrong, but it seems to me
that you have a tendency to only see such structural elements. Let me
ask you carefully - honestly, do you speak German? I mean, really well,
not "I took a year in college 20 years ago". If you do, especially if
it is even your first language, it would be really hard for me to
understand why you don't see this connection, because it's so glaringly
obvious.

> So what parts of the theme do you think are due to Beethoven, first of
> all?
>
> The theme uses a typical Beethoven phrase manipulation method
> ("fragmentation"), applied to a short subphrase with a strong rhythmic
> design - that is a very brief snippet of a dance-like melody. Words
> will inevitably get distorted, a melody like that is not a vehicle for
> language, really (whether there are words or not).
>
> And, fragmentation is not connected to language either; its use is
> strictly in musical pattern manipulation. (It's not terribly
> complicated - in it, an initial subphrase is progressively shortened.
> Beethoven uses it a lot, and he uses it also more in initial themes
> than, say, Haydn and Mozart. Op. 2/1/i has a typical example.)

You said it yourself. These elements are musical techniques and since I
wasn't talking about exact representation of speeach in music, but
about a general "feel" which the music shares with the language, there
is no contradiction between the way Beethoven employs such techniques
and the fact that the theme does have a very "German ring" to it. It's
mostly an undertone which I find hard to describe in words. I could
probably illustrate it to you in person by singing and speaking, but
apart from the fact that that is obviously not possible online, hearing
me sing could cause irrepairable mental damage to you!
It also has something to do with the long-windedness of such themes
with a lot of sidethoughts which is a typical German thing. Other
languages, like English, organize thoughts in different ways. I believe
you could probably tell that I am not a native English speaker from the
really long sentences I have a tendency to put together, even though my
spelling and grammar are most of the time correct.

> What's Viennese here is not any connection to the 'phrase rhythms' of
> any local language, but the ubiquitous $#$*$& 3/8 and 3/4 thing... (And
> the art music vs. ethnic dance forms debate is another matter, from
> which I will excuse myself today.)

Yes, please! Vienna doesn't move exclusively in 3/4. Such an assumption
would be silly and a direct contradiction to the other rather more
sophisticated points you made.

> Lena
>
> PS. There is an additional component of auto-parody in the
> construction,
> as I said somewhere. In this version, it's a tune which tries to
> start up, gets repeatedly imitated, until eventually a figurative
> piano lid gets banged down on the whole thing in m. 7. That, even
> though I'm not totally convinced parody is the intention.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Why do you like Mozarts music?
    ... The connection is not exact. ... >>> obvious if you understand the language really well, ... If you do have a decent idea of the feel of German ... >> Look at this theme in the score: the phrase construction, ...
    (rec.music.classical.recordings)
  • Re: Why do you like Mozarts music?
    ... The connection is not exact. ... If you do have a decent idea of the feel of German ... >> language. ...
    (rec.music.classical.recordings)
  • Re: Why do you like Mozarts music?
    ... phrase bla bla point... ... >>> you can hear clear echoes of the German language in that melody. ... The connection between German sentences often having subsidiary ...
    (rec.music.classical.recordings)
  • Re: Clarksons latest article.
    ... been written in German, if it had been actually allowed to be written at ... joining an army) their their language of preference might well be ... retained our Superpower status and our Empire (since we'd be an ally ... If you mean the British Empire dissolved a few years after the war ...
    (uk.media.tv.misc)
  • Re: Learning a language
    ... >> Vineyard can be used as a model to the fact that a separate pidgin English ... The speakers of a language, any language, ... > The Second Sound Shift today plays an important role in distinguishing one ... > local variety of German from another, ...
    (sci.lang)
Loading