Re: Why do you like Mozart's music?


"Lena" <emsworth@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1135613885.890885.200520@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Michael Schaffer wrote:
>> Lena wrote:
>> > Michael Schaffer wrote:
>
>
>> > > > In the Beethoven symphony 5/ii example, I'm not sure if you mean
>> > > > the
>> > > > first 8 bars, but if you do, that's not actually a complex phrase
>> > > > construction. It's a short theme built out of a single subphrase
>> > > > with
>> > > > musical means very typical of the time (phrase extension,
>> > > > variation,
>> > > > and fragmentation). The theme also uses a rhythmic trick; it
>> > > > dislocates a pattern wrto to the barline in an unexpected way.
>> > > > Speech
>> > > > or writing generally doesn't have any of this accuracy (although
>> > > > writing as art can do similar things).
>> > >
>> > > I didn't say music his music imitated speeach in exact ways. But the
>> > > connection with language of the tone and phrase structure of a lot of
>> > > his music is very obvious and striking.
>> >
>> > But that's just it. The connection is not exact. Or close, like some
>> > transcription of a cuckoo call. So what you're offering is an
>> > interpretation. There's only one problem: the speech thing omits as
>> > much of the music as it explains.
>> >
>> > > It doesn't really matter how a theme is constructed,
>> >
>> > (With Classical era composers, it does matter... but let's ignore
>> > that.)
>> >
>> > > it's more the general "feel" and tone, the ups
>> > > and downs, the little inserted sidethoughts, etc. All that is very
>> > > obvious if you understand the language really well,
>> >
>> > Wait a minute. If you do have a decent idea of the feel of German
>> > phrase flow, *and* you have looked at the score carefully, you may
>> > start realizing that the correspondence between the two is not quite
>> > that obvious and striking.
>> >
>> > Look at this theme in the score: the phrase construction, the
>> > articulation, the prevalence of dotted notes, the presence of an
>> > underlying pulse. Take all those into account in your speech
>> > interpretation. So, if this is a German speaking, it's a German with
>> > a curious 3/8 lilt to his speech, a German who is out of breath, a
>> > German who keeps making odd skipping sounds with his vowels. He also
>> > seems to be engaged in a process of repeating himself, as if he were
>> > entered in an auto-parody contest.
>>
>
>
>> Where did I ever say it was a direct representation of speeach
>> patterns?
>
> You talk about speech here:
>
>> I didn't say music his music imitated speeach in exact ways. But the
>> connection with language of the tone and phrase structure of a lot of
>> his music is very obvious and striking.

Saying there is a connection is not the same is saying it's a direct
representation.
>
> and here:
>
>> and many German composers write themes which reflect the phrase
>> structure of German, which [...] is often very long phrases with a
>> lot of side clauses and inserts, [...] and there are a lot of
>> examples for this kind of theme, for instance the 2nd movement of
>> Beethoven's 5th is a very good example for a them which very
>> obviously reflects the typical "phrase melody" of the German
>> language.
>
> [Beethoven Symphony 5/ii, first 8 bars. The remaining bars are left
> as an easy exercise for the reader. :):) ]
>
>> But let me say this: didn't it occur to you that it might have more to
>> do with the sung language rather than the spoken language, we are
>> talking about music after all, and that there is a very direct
>> connection between spoken and sung language?
>
> Not such a direct connection, necessarily. Songs are frequently in
> strongly patterned musical forms whose original main use may not be
> language/speech but something else (movement); and the needs of
> that something else override words.

It seems something of an 'either/or' opposition that you're setting up. A
song created with no reference whatsoever to the properties of the language
would surely sound hopelessly arcane. Just because song makes use of highly
stylised uses of language doesn't mean it's completely independent of the
language in question.

Ian


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Why do you like Mozarts music?
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  • Re: Why do you like Mozarts music?
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  • Re: Why do you like Mozarts music?
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