Re: Why do you like Mozart's music?

"Michael Schaffer" <ms1000@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1135478674.818801.247870@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Michael Schaffer wrote:
>> Raymond Hall wrote:
>> > "Michael Schaffer" <ms1000@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> > news:1135461909.977038.92540@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >
>> > > david7gable@xxxxxxx wrote:
>> > >> >Since the crux of the debate is language, I'd like to point out
>> > >> >that
>> > >> there are at least 3 grammatical problems with this sentence.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Er spricht ein fehlerloses Deutsch.
>> > >>
>> > >> -david gable
>> > >
>> > > So what? I never claimed to be 100% correct in English (although I
>> > > think there is only 1 mistake in the sentence - into -), but I know
>> > > English probably 10 times better than you know German or any other
>> > > language. Apart from that, English doesn't play a big role in the
>> > > so-called "classical" music world. German, Italian, French, Russian,
>> > > and other languages are far more important. English comes somewhere
>> > > on
>> > > position 10 or lower.
>> >
>> > And *so-called* it is too, even according to the world of Schaffer.
>> > Apart
>> > from Russian and Czech, Hungarian and Spanish, of which I know merest
>> > smattering of all, and Lutoslawski, and a few Frenchies, and some
>> > Scandinavians and Icelanders, the most important music of the 20th
>> > century,
>> > is, by a country mile, of that generated from the English speaking
>> > countries.
>> >
>> > Apart from Hindemith, I can't say I could be bothered with anything
>> > German.
>> > One has to go back to Bach, Haydn and Mozart, for some decent German
>> > music.
>> > All I hear, and have heard, when in Germany, is muzak, and oomp-pah-pah
>> > music. And I ain't kidding either Herr Schaffer.
>>
>> Funny you didn't manage to find anything "non-muzak" when you visited
>> Germany. That is quite a feat since there is no country with as high a
>> density of symphony orchestras and opera houses. Most bigger cities
>> even have several.
>> Sorry to hear you don't enjoy Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn,
>> Schumann, Brahms, Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler, Strauss, all these guys.
>> But the later ones of these and the contribution of music from English
>> speaking composers in the 20th century really has no relevance for this
>> discussion since it is bascially about HIP vs. tradition. I have a nice
>> disc of Vaughan Willimas played by the New Queenshall Orchestra which
>> can be called a HIP effort too, but HIP vs. traditional mostly applies
>> to earlier repertoire from times when music from English speaking
>> countries played next to no role, except for a few isolated incidences.
>> But not enough to form a "long tradition". As good as British
>> orchestras are now, they don't have a very long performance tradition
>> anyway, and not really a typically British one. Almost all wind
>> instruments used in symphony orchestras until quite far into the 20th
>> century were "import" models from France, as were the playing schools.
>>
>> > Happy Season's Greetings To All
>> >
>> > Ray H
>> > Taree
>
> And also, it doesn't really matter what music you listen to or what I
> prefer. The "crux" of this discussion was "HIP vs. traditional playing
> styles", and whatever you think of the music of particular composers,
> you can't deny that Germany obviously has a very long music tradition
> of its own.

Maybe the crux quickly became HIP vs traditional, but from reading a thread
initially dedicated to Mozart, one can never be surprised at how any thread
can turn. Besides which, whatever direction the thread turned, it seemed to
be yourself, who at regular intervals, seemed to lose your cool, and turn it
even further. Almost in hysterical fashion, you ended up by abusing regular
posters right, left and centre, even resorting to attacking their basic
intelligence. Your posts are there for all to read, and are now fact, and
whilst I cannot, and will still, never fully understand David Gable's
anti-HIP argument, one could never accuse him of lacking intelligence, or
grace, attributes which are sadly lacking in all of your posts.


> There is no way to deny that, of course one can always take
> refuge to denouncing Germans as Nazis,

There are many things many of us cannot deny, but have I ever denounced you
or even your beloved Herbie the K as a Nazi? The fact is I haven't and I
wonder why you write the above? But I can quickly guess. A matter which
deserves another thread maybe. But let us stick to this one.


> but even that doesn't change the
> fact that there is a very long grown tradition of performing orchestral
> and operatic as well as chamber music, all the forms we call
> "classical" or whatever.

It has a tradition, yes. But hardly the only one. As I seem to recall, it
took English speaking conductors to teach two German speaking orchestras,
namely the Berlin PO, (Herbie's lovely gang), and the VPO, on how to play
Mahler. Barbirolli and Bernstein respectively were their names. It took
another English speaking conductor, Maazel, (fluent also in many languages I
believe), to get the VPO to put down a decent set of Sibelius symphonies.
And wasn't it a mere Italian bandmaster, who while domiciled in America, put
down a fast and furious set of Beethoven symphonies, that are admired widely
as being fairly indispensible? As for other music from around the world,
Russia, South America, Spain, France, Sweden, and wherever, one shudders to
think about German tradition. Maybe that Romantic museum stuff, eh? But then
Germany is always the country we think of, when we think of Romance, isn't
it?


> If such a traditions doesn't exist, then there is no contradiction
> between it and HIP. You can twist and turn it as much as you like, you
> can denounce me, you can deny the cultural traditions of my country,

Nobody, from what I read, is denouncing cultural traditions. Rather, you are
highlighting it, by insisting upon how important your German tradition is.
Actually, it isn't, in the context of music in general, of any more
importance nowadays, than anywhere else.


> David7s argument simply makes no sense at all.

Well, at least it is consistant, if endearingly obtuse. But the final straw,
Herr Schaffer, is when you say the English language is below 10th in
importance wrt music. A startling conclusion if ever one ever read
*anything* in this newsgroup, an ignorant statement, a prejudiced statement,
and a statement which fully shows your insecurities in all its glaring
glory.

Ray H
Taree




.

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