Re: OT: Repuglicans are disgusting, 9/30/05 edition

>> Owen, this is disingenuous. There may be a factual basis that a
>> specific culture or society rejects democracy because it does not lead
>> them down the path that they seek. It is certainly conceivable that
>> *some* cultures would rather submit to 'self-oppression' to attain some
>> spiritual or societal goal than to risk running afoul of that goal
>> through the liberty that comes from democracy.

>I think your argument is disingenuous. I think the idea that any
>peoples are better off by throwing the yoke of self-representation is a
>thinly veiled prejudice. That somehow, the "will of the people"
>(certainly a democratic ideal) can be devined to know that they prefer
>despotism, simply because the despots have flexed their muscles.

I NEVER said any of that. You are putting words into my mouth, and the
mouths of others who are trying to understand why democracy has a hard
timne taking hold in some places.

I maintain that if a society is sufficiently focused on adhering to a
hard-line approach to some set of principles, especially if those
principles are religious, they will possibly eschew any system that
allows wavering from that approach. It will not be until a significant
number of people either see through the smokescreen of stigma and want
democracy badly enough, or simply that enough people on their own want
to go in a different direction, that the yoke of oppression will be
tossed.

>I happen to believe the opening lines of the Declaration of
Independence, that all men are created equal, and all have the right of

life, liberty, etc.<

Me too. I so strongly believe these lines that I also extend them to
all living creatures.

> The concept that Arab (or any other) peoples are somehow ill-equipped to govern themselves without a tyrannical
despotism is a foul calumny and a insult against those peoples. <

Again, you are putting words into my mouth and mouths of others. I
don't think the principles and actions of democracy are beyond *any*
group of people who desire it. I am only saying that the awareness and
desire must be there. If people grow up in a society where oppression
is given rationale that the masses will relate to and everyone gets
comfy with this, this awareness may be very slow to arrive at their
doorstep. It has nothing to do with capability, race or genes and
everything to do with what you've been inculcated with.

The greater foul calumny and insult is that WE here in the enlightened
West believe we have a dictum to enforce this better system by beating
them into submission. Our own folly is that we think we can do it this
way.

And frankly, Owen, I think you sound like so many other conservatives
these days (including the pathetic demagoguic liars on the radio) who
try to gain favor for your POV not with reasoned discourse but by
trying make those who disagree look like racists and bigots and nazis
and communists and traitors and etc. You are better than that, better
than the insipid showmanship, better than the greedy power-lusting
filth with an electronic soapbox.

Bruce Jensen

.

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