Re: Please abandon this forum

John LaCroix wrote:
On Mar 22, 4:31 pm, "Reza Ganjavi (www.rezamusic.com)"
<ganj...@xxxxxx> wrote:
This is the most refreshing thread I've ever read on this forum,
although today I subscribed to this newsgroup after being absent for a
long time (and have read just about five posts) and will soon
unsubscribe again for the very reason Paulpods discusses.

I believe all unmoderated cyber forums are problematic. Dialogue and
exchange is good but these unregulated forums under the outdated
technology known as "usenet" (developed some 30 years ago) are
completely open to abuse. Add to that the current state of cyber law
which is far behind law in the real world (but quickly catching up).

The only hope for an unmoderated open forum is the decency of
participants and respect for civility. I do not know of any unmoderated
forum where this decency fully exists and know many moderated forums in
which it does. The simple reason is, there are a lot of lunatics out
there who abuse the unmoderated forum in a variety of ways to achieve
fulfillment of their boring life, to be somebody in a cyber-group when
their lives are empty and devoid of rich relationships, to fulfill a
dream and pretend to be something they could never be in real life, to
get a kick out of kicking people, you know, there are so many sick
people out there and even after taming themselves to the max in order to
win public sympathy, so called friendship, and so on, the vulgarity that
they never grow out of keeps showing up.

Now you got people like Angelo Gilardino and Stanley Yates and other
civil, good, yet less well known folks posting on a forum like this and
this helps its spirit -- the "pub" gets a bit more civil and rational
but the fact remains that there is always the possibility of vulgar
attacks not only at a superficial level but at a highly criminal and
illegal level. In a real world pub at least the bar tender is sober and
call 911.

I completely support Paulpods' call for abandonment of such forums in
favor of moderated forums until both the technology and regulation
improves enough to make such forums a safe place. As it stands today,
all unmoderated forums including internet in general is an extremely
dangerous place. I am writing a book on the subject presently.

I wish all civil good "humans" to have a happy & safe spring.



ag wrote:
On 21 Mar, 03:27, paulpods <paulp...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Classical Guitar has a hard enough time in the world anyway. Anyone
searching for information about Classical Guitar might happen on to
this list. What an embarrassment if people find this list where
anonymous posters with no accomplishments can create havoc.
I'm begging the people of some accomplishment on this list, Matanya
Ophee, Angelo Gilardino, Stanley Yates, Andrew Schulman, etc., to stop
posting to this forum. And I'm begging the rest of us to go to forums
where there is some moderation or at least a bit of self-policed
decency. There's delcamp, acousticguitar, guitarsalon and others.
Consider the negative effect this forum has on Classical Guitar in
general, and the negative effect this forum has on your own health.
Let this forum die. Stop using it. Leave it only to the unbalanced and
no one will want to peruse it anymore. R.I.P.
Thank You.
For a professional musician who work in the area of classical guitar,
there is nothing to earn from sharing his knowledge in a newsgroup.
Yet, it may be a sign of a certain attitude toward life not to close
himself in an ivory tower with claiming "I am too important for these
guys": like the music one writes, also his words are addressed to
humanity, not to people, and there is a lot of humanity here, albeit
mixed with a lot of people.
ag- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

<sarcasm>
Yes, what we need it a world where all discussions, both online and
otherwise are moderated so no one's feelings get hurt.
</sarcasm>

What then will you do when the 'moderator' rubs you the wrong way?

John L.

John, that's an interesting point despite your being sarcastic.
In a perfect world everyone would have freedom of speech including freedom to speech anonymously, and nobody would abuse those rights. Of course we don't live in a perfect world. For one thing, many political systems don't give their people that freedom but take a society that does provide those freedoms, like the US, where those freedoms are protected by the 1st Amendment and its derivatives (i.e. court rulings, e.g., the ruling that protected the right to speak anonymously). No right is absolute and in the same society, when those rights are abused they're lost. This was exactly the case which I litigated as discussed in my upcoming book and various filings as discussed on:

http://home.datacomm.ch/rezamusic/RezaGanjavi_vs_JeremySmith_ToddTipton_WilliamJennings_et_al.html
http://home.datacomm.ch/rezamusic/3rd_amended_complaint_IL.htm
http://home.datacomm.ch/rezamusic/misc_filings.html

A person abused his right to free anonymous speech by carrying a number of attacks on this very newsgroup such as using my email address and name and website URL to pose as me and then to publish posts that sympathized with terrorists, insulted people of African origin, and attack my personality, products and services in every unimaginable way, setup website that mocked mine, publish stuff I hadn't written as my writings, and attacks which a minute fraction of would make most people break down. He used numerous aliases and attempted to remain anonymous. After going through hell, I got a hold of his ISP and subpoenaed them for his identity. Around the same time, I came upon a clue and with help from a friend who used to read this newsgroup, nailed down who the attacker was, but still needed legal proof, so pursued the subpoena and the guy tried to still remain anonymous and prevent his ISP from releasing his name. So I got a call fomr a top notch lawyer at a freedom of speech advocacy group wanting to know if my case had merit. His threat was, if I could not show my case has merit, he will file a motion to quash my subpoena and for the guy to remain anonymous.

I sent him the evidence document I had compiled (at the time, some 90 pages which was and is not public as a Federal judge had agreed to have it filed under seal). Upon reviewing it he decided not to file the motion and the ISP sent me the guy's name and address in Chicago as indicated in the public filings. The rest of the details are out of scope here, but the point is, there are limits to freedoms when freedoms are abused.

Now, in the "real world" (vs. cyberspace), the laws governing abuses of rights are much more present and intuitive than in cyberspace. In the real world, a discussion group may or may not be moderated but no forums allows one of the participants to pose as another participant and threaten to kill another participant (which was one of the things that happened in this case -- one of the guys I had no choice but to sue in the case referenced above, did exactly that). Furthermore, it is more intuitive in participants in forums in the real world that there are certain things they can't get away with, but somehow, naively, many people think just because it's in cyber world, they can get away with it. This is a very serious problem in our époque. Cyber stalking experts know all about this. Serious crimes happen within these contexts and legislation and law enforcement are a step behind but are catching up as more people raise awareness to these matters which is exactly why I have been prompted to write a book about the hell I had to go through and the successes I had, which many victims of these kinds of abuses are not capable to achieve for a variety of reasons...

So, yes, I would say, a cyber-space based free-for-all, open forum where anybody and their mother could participate, around a topic which is general enough to attract a large cross section of society (e.g. guitar) vs. a very specific one (e.g. syntactic structures in nominals), needs a moderator, and there are many such groups with moderators (e.g. rec.music.beatles.moderated) which work perfectly, and ideally, a moderator's role is minimal and mainly limited to weeding out abusers. Otherwise, abuse is to be expected because there are people out there who do not respect other people's rights -- plain and simple.

So I'd revise your remarks you clearly posted as sarcasm, if I may, as follows:

"Yes, what we need is a world where online discussions in forums where people post using their real-identity, are moderated so no one's rights are abused."

You notice I replaced "feelings" with "rights" because the dangers are not about people just hurting other people's feelings by saying I don't like your playing or the sound of your name, but serious offenses that can literally destroy people.

Regards
Reza Ganjavi
www.rezamusic.com
www.rezajournal.com








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