Re: A question on action and tension

On Dec 14, 8:29 am, "Kevin Hall" <timberl...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Paul;

Just re-read your Oribe quote. In that, he's clinging to physics as far
as it seems to support his aesthetic perception then he's abandonning it and
relying on 'feel' for his observations.

He agrees that a longer string needs greater tension to pull it up to
pitch, then he contradicts himself ( and physics) by saying that the looser
string actually feels tighter. He contends that the shorter string travels
less distance in spite of less tension, which is not borne out by the
experience of anyone who has set up a great number of guitars. Longer
scale guitars can often be set to lower specs at the 12th fret than can
short scale instruments, precisely because the looser string has greater
excursion and is more likely to buzz on the fretboard at the same action
height.

In spite of being able to be set up to lower action specs, the longer scale
will still actually feel 'stiffer' to play because of the greater tension.
All this of course depends on all other factors like string guage, nut slot
height, neck relief etc. being equal.

I am not, in fact, looking at it from an artistic perspective as you
suggest. I'm looking at it from the perspective of a player and working
luthier with 50 years as the former and 40 as the latter. During that
time I have set up thousands of guitars, both steel strung and nylon, from
the cheapest to some of the most noteworthy guitars in existence. Believe
me, if the 'tighter is looser' school of thought had any practical merit,
I'd be setting short scale guitars up lower and long scales up higher in
order to get optimum buzz-free action.

Mr. Oribe is a well respected luthier and author, but I suspect that like
many others he is mistaking the 'feel' of a short-scale guitar set up too
high for being physically 'stiff'.

Many classical guitars tend to be set up too high at the nut for some odd
reason. Perhaps it is because it takes more time and care to get them set
to optimum height there than it does to get it 'close enough'. The height
at the nut is critical to overall feel, but it is often neglected.

For many years classical builders were advised by 'experts' and several
authors to cut their nut slots with 3-cornered Swiss files, which makes
absolutely no sense whatsoever. Ramirez did it for decades, so it must have
been right. In reality it leads to poor tuning and premature string winding
failures as the resulting vee-shaped slots jam and damage strings. Even
though it defied all common sense, people defended the practice because it
was recommended by 'authorities' on the matter in published works.

Some of the advice offered in books by the late and much-respected Irving
Sloane, ( particularly his steel string volume) was absolutely dreadful and
unworkable, but at the time they were published they were virtually the
only guides commonly available and so gained great credibility.

The fact that something appears in a book does not make it any more true.

All the best,
KH

"GuitarsWeB" <Guitars...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:4908990c-45c1-4f65-8523-edca154b606b@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Dec 13, 10:26 pm, "Kevin Hall" <timberl...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Paul;

At no point have I suggested that you are alone in your thinking. Quite
the
contrary. Neither am I. The interesting part is that proponents of each
point of view seem to be completely unable to relate to the other sides'
perception of the issue. And again, not just you and I.
KH"GuitarsWeB" <Guitars...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:b803d4fb-f3fe-4ac1-a872-e9bf06d2c62c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

On Dec 13, 5:21 pm, "Kevin Hall" <timberl...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Ed; Your example is correct in that the longer scale is stiffer to
play
in
both instances. The longer the string, the tighter it must be wound
in
order to get it up to pitch. That, as our pal GuitarsWeb is so fond
of
saying, is physics.

Your example coincides with my position that longer scale guitars feel
stiffer in the hands than do shorter scale instruments of equal
quality
and
similar set-up. Perhaps you got my name and that of Paul mixed.

There is another interesting trade-off between short and long scales
as
well
as the perceived tension difference. The shorter scale will make
tuning
adjustments 'faster' than they would be with tuners of the same gear
ratio
on a longer scale. That can actually make short scales slightly more
difficult to tune since the effective ratio between tuner and string
length
will be higher on the shorter string. Of course that can be
corrected
by
using tuners with lower gear ratios on shorter scale instruments.

Those of a scientific frame of mind can probably work out the relative
ratios in order for two instruments, a long scale and a short, to
tune
with the same precision. For actual players it is often sufficient to
know
that they have to use a little more subtlety on the pegs when tuning
shorties.

KH<edspyhil...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:46447346-081b-45b9-961d-da584ff59f17@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

On Dec 13, 10:38 am, GuitarsWeB <Guitars...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
On Dec 13, 8:18 am, "Kevin Hall" <timberl...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

A long clothes line will indeed 'sway and flop' more than a short
one,
unless it is strung more tightly. Given that the long
clothesline
in
question has to be strung more tightly in order to get it up to
pitch,
the
argument fails.

KH"GuitarsWeB" <Guitars...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:e4bd93c9-fb74-42e0-85b8-8a2b70e60346@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

On Dec 12, 8:12 am, "Kevin Hall" <timberl...@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Given that there are obviously 2 sides to the debate, and
both
have
enthusiastic adherents, my statement stands.

I'm well aware of the physics argument, having heard it on
and
off
for
about 40 years. There are substantial numbers of
well-educated
and
thoughtful players who can and do remain of the opinion that
their
hands
give them more relevant feedback on the issue than do
sliderules.
I
agree.

I have no trouble at all with folks who prefer the feel of a
long
scale,
and for many purposes it serves well. The original poster
asked
a
question
about factors affecting the way an instrument plays, and he's
entitled
to
both sides of a very old argument.

KH"Robert Crim" <fritzg...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:4houl3138fcabu4dl67h09pk5igsg3897a@xxxxxxxxxx

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:25:19 -0500, "Kevin Hall"
<timberl...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

That's a contentious issue. As many folks who cling to
'Guitarswebs'
theory about long scales feeling looser, there are just as
many
who
strongly disagree and find that the higher tension of long
scales
gives
a
stiffer feel in spite of the fact that the longer scale may
permit
physically lower action.

I've heard the issue debated many times, with sane and
knowledgeable
people
on each side.

The issue is not contentious at all. For a proper read of
the
physics
of the question I recommend
http://www.hago.org.uk/faqs/formulae-2.html.

Robert

I'm well aware of the physics argument, having heard it on and
off
for
about 40 years. There are substantial numbers of well-educated
and
thoughtful players who can and do remain of the opinion that
their
hands
give them more relevant feedback on the issue than do
sliderules.
I
agree. >>>>>>>>

Well, physics is physics. A long span bridge will move and sway
more
than a shorter span bridge. A long clothes line will sway and
flop
more than a shorter one. Guitar making is not vudo or magic. I
have
been told it 90% science and physics and 10% touch and feel.
I'm
not
a
guitar maker though. I did preface my first post with "IMO" as
a
player.
Paul McGuffin

No Kevin, it is science/physics. It was understood that booth lines
were strung to the same tension. The argument does not fail. Now,
if
one pulls on the two lines and says differently, then that is touch
and feel, subjective. I think that is what you're saying, and I
agree. The way a guitar feels and plays if subjective to each
player.
I have talked with D'Addario tech people and they will tell you the
same thing.
Paul McGuffin
Paul McGuffin- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The practical, experiential argument has usually been the difference
between a 25.5" scale length and a 24" scale length on electric
guitars. The Fender Stratocaster has a string scale length of 25.5"
and the Gibson Les Paul or SG has a string scale length of 24". It
is
"harder" to play and/or bend strings on a Strat than on a Les Paul
or
SG.

Another is the difference between a 34" scale bass and a 30" scale
bass. Tuned to the same pitch the 30" scale bass has a floppy
string
feel. A 35" scale bass is even stiffer.

Paul, I think this backs up your point of view.

Ed S.

Kenin, this is from Jose Oribe's book "The Fine Guitar" page 32..
"In SHORT SCALE guitars tuned to correct pitch (i.e. A440) the string
is actually looser but feels tighter than a LONGER SCALE guitar.
There is less tension needed for the shorter string to reach a desired
pitch. With the string suspended between a closer nut and bridge
bone, there is less movement between these two points of contact;
hence, the tighter feeling, etc"
So, I don't feel that I'm alone in my thinking and how they feel to
me. Anyway, just give it some thought.
Paul McGuffin

I can relate...you're looking at it from an artistic point of view. I
and others are looking at it from an engineering point of view. Just
like the bracing under the soundboard; works like a truss bridge.
Paul McGuffin

Okay.... let's agree to disagree, and I will accept that to most
makers and players, the 650mm is the "Holy Grail." I will agree with
your feelings, many classical makers don't set up the instruments
correctly.I do my own action work, and for me, nothing over 3mm at the
12th fret. I think Ramirez got the 5mm action started back in the mid
1960's.
Paul McGuffin
.

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