Re: Ahmadinejad never denied the Holocaust, it was the media.

On Oct 10, 6:47 pm, comics...@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Oct 10, 1:00 am, Salvador Astucia <cropduster...@xxxxxx> wrote:

Not true. Jesus of Nazareth is the central figure in Christianity, not
every passage in the Bible. Jesus rejected eye for an eye.

Jesus is the central figure in Christianity but he isn't the SUM of
all Christianity. The Popes and Roman Congregations are some of the
post-Biblical era influences on the practice of Christianity. And they
maintained "eye-for-an-eye" as legal and binding right up through the
Enlightenment.

Nonsense. Jesus rejected eye for an eye, and is the central figure of
the religion, with the except of Paul the Apostle whom many people
(most notably Thomas Jefferson) corrupted the teachings of Jesus.
Sorry, but you seem to want to debate basic facts that are not worthy
of debate. Try reading the Gospels if you don't believe Jesus rejected
eye for an eye. Just because previous Popes and powerful people who
claimed to be Christians did not follow the teachings of Jesus does
make what they did Christian.

Where in the Bible did Jesus tell people to follow the teachings of
the Pope? Where in the entire Bible does anyone say to do that?

The Bible states that what is done on Earth is as it is done in
Heaven. Thus the Church's decision to create the position of Pope as
ultimate intercessor BECOMES a point of the faith.

In other words, nowhere.

Your total hatred of Jews blinds you to the fact that your arguments
limit Christianity to the Bible but not Judaism to the Torah. <snip>

Total hatred? Where did you read that? And yes, Christianity is
limited to the Bible -- specifically, the Gospels. In my opinion, a
better book is the Jefferson Bible, which only deals with the
teachings of Jesus. Consequently, it's only about 100 pages long. I
limit Judaism to the books of the Talmud and the Old Testament of the
Bible, which is what most Rabbis do. See http://www.come-and-hear.com

Sorry, I'm not going to debate the Kol Nidre prayer with you because
I've got all the books of the Talmud on CD,

The actual Talmud is a guidebook written by Rabbis in Babylon under
orders to explain the differences between Judaic practice in Jerusalem
and Mesopotamia -- at a time when the communities were insulated as
others. <snip>

Kol Nidre denier.

Your dislike of Jews DOES clearly lead you to books but not people: go
ask a rabbi about Kol Nidre. Or sit in on a service during Kol Nidre.

I'm not going to debate the Kol Nidre because it is clearly defined in
the Talmud, and therefore unworthy of debate. See http://www.come-and-hear.com

Israel also evokes hatred among its Arab/Muslim neighbors.

HOW???? How does a nation that wants only peace invoke hatred between
nations that -- as you have already agreed -- make it official policy
that the state of Israel does not exist, will not exist, will never
exist and that the people claiming to be Israel be slaughtered and all
traces of it on the map be erased? <snip>

Again, you are debating a very basic fact which is not worthy of
debate. As much as you obviously love Israel, there is no denying that
it is hated by its neighbors.

I would trade archaeology expertise and wines and
oranges for oil any day :-)

Coming from a nation that protected oil drills while priceless
artefacts of the development of ALL humanity -- not to mention the
region itself -- were destroyed, that's easy to believe. <snip>

Americans are sick of higher gas prices, and it's because of our
government's loyalty to Israel. If we would dump Israel, gas prices
would drop in a hurry.

That is completely false. Muslims respect the teachings of Jesus and
Christianity. Most Jews don't feel the same way.

Nothing is more evident of your ignorance than this statement.
Theologically, Islam respects Christianity AND Judaism as followers of
the Word of God. <snip>

If you're discussing religions, *theology* is important. It defines
the religion. People's actions in the name of religion are different
from the religion itself. You seem to have a tough time with that
concept. Again, Mohammed loved Jesus, and most Jews hate him. If
Christians are forced to pick sides, which one is the proper choice?
It ain't rocket science.

American Jews care about taxes, work, meeting a nice girl to get
married to, getting their kids into good schools, and not being blown
up by whack jobs who think that regular terrorism is an effective
tactic. European Jews care about taxes, work, meeting girls, getting
their kids into good schools, and not being the target of anti-Semitic
attacks by skin heads who still believe in Fascism. Hell, most Iraelis
only care about taxes, work, sex, girls, good schools for kids, and
not getting blown up. [By the same token, most Muslims care about
taxes, work, meeting a nice person, settling down, having kids,
getting them a good education and a good start on life, and not
getting shot at/blown up/etc. in a war or other conflict.]

Why are you telling me what Jews care about? The topic of this thread
is the false accusation, by the media and others, that Mr. Ahmadinejad
denies a single Jew was imprisoned in German camps or died in them
between 1938 and 1945. Mr. Ahmadinejad has never denied these basic
facts, and neither has *any* scholar.

Judaism has NEVER written texts that advocate the absolute dismissal
of Christianity as something not to be respected. <snip>

Since you're big on people's actions as opposed to *theology,* why did
the the high priests of the Sanhedrin plot to murder Jesus if they
loved him so much? In the books of the Talmud, contempt for Jesus is
not hidden, and it is not hidden that the stated high priests
essentially killed him.

Funny how Zionists love to cite UN violations when discussing
Ahmadinejad or Saddam Hussein.

Zionism does not equal Judaism.

Thank-you for that non-response.

Yet if anyone mentions Israel's obvious
UN violations, suddenly the UN becomes a paper tiger.

The UN lost all validity to me the day they decreed Israeli children
do not have the inherent right to live.

What day was that? You're delusional.

Not live freely or safely,
just live. Period. It is not a comment about anti-Semitism, it is a
case of the world's most "humaitarian" organization violating the very
spirit which it proclaims.

At some point it would be nice if you would come back to reality.

As for violations, the only people who spout the ignorance of the
violations are the people who think the UN is going to help them
effect their will on those nations. EVERY NATION IS A VIOLATOR, AND
THE WORST VIOLATOR ISN'T ISRAEL BY FAR. <snip>

Israel merely ignores every resolution that it applies to it, then
accuses of others (like Iraq and Iran) of being criminal regimes if
they do *exactly* the same thing.

Hogwash. Zionism *lives* in the Old Testament.

Jihad and hatred of the Christian *lives* in the Koran, <snip>

That is a lie. The Koran does not preach hatred of Christianity. But
again, Zionism lives in the Old Testament.

The Old Testament does not advocate the creation of a State of Israel. <snip>

Ever heard of God's Chosen People?

"Zionism" in its modern context is the desire to form a secular state
of Israel. <snip>

The basis for Zionism is the Old Testament, God's chosen people, and
all that crap.


At the risk of being called anti-Semitic, does this teacher happen to
have a name?

James Keegstra. Convicted in 1985. <snip>

A little context, please.

Not cold blooded gutless murder of innocents like Irgun did to the
victims at the King David Hotel.

Tell that to the aboriginal peoples of North America. It wasn't
bombing by a small group, it was the authorized removal of a settled
people by whatever force necessary.

At least you're admitting that Irgun's bombing of the King David Hotel
was cold blooded gutless murder of innocents. That's a start.

Again, you're missing the bigger point about the bombing of the King
David Hotel: ISRAEL IS EMBARASSED BY THOSE EVENTS. The culprits were
disbanded by the first Israeli government and the government has
refused to accept such acts as a legitimate tactic. <snip>

Of course the leader of Irgun, Begin (the person who masterminded the
terrorist bombing of the King David Hotel), went on to become prime
minister of Israel. Excuse me if I don't believe Israel's so-called
shame.

That is a huge mistake on our part. We understand that Israel has
ignored countless UN resolution, and we don't seem to care. That is
why the Arabs and Muslims don't take us seriously.

Arabs and Muslims don't take the west seriously? They take them VERY
seriously -- especially since it's their continued wealth on the line! <snip>

They laugh at American politicians because most are a joke. There is
definitely a double-standard when it comes to Israel's conduct versus
the conduct of Arab/Muslim nations.


If you're trying to insult me by calling me Persian/Iranian, don't
bother. I like them. Frankly, I respect Mr. Ahmadinejad much more
than Bush.

I'm not trying to insult you -- identifying you as Iranian descent
explains a lot of your positions because it's the avenue of
information that you have. The insults are above when I say you are
clearly not willing to accept a separation between the rhetoric of
some websites and the actual people and their practice.

As for respecting someone above Bush -- please. Most people on this
planet respect fictional characters above the sitting President of the
United States.

No argument there.

Americans react to Holocaust comments because we've been Holocausted
to death. Ahmadinejad is correct when he says it has become a religion
of sorts.

Americans have been "Holocausted to death"? Really??

Yes, it's called propaganda.

It's not the
dominant component of WWII narratives in the US -- the myth you won
the war (rather than all Allied nations) is -- and it's not absu ject
repeatedly returned to time and time again in American entertainment
product. It's not covered in the news at all, except maybe in the
Jewish newspapers when it comes to Holocaust Memorial Day.

It is a topic that can not be openly discussed, even though it
occurred nearly 70 years ago.

Ahmadinejad's statement is identical to his statement about no
homosexuals living in Iran: <snip>

He didn't say it in absolute terms (homosexuals, that is). My
impression is he said homosexuality was not a widespread lifestyle in
Iran the way it is in the USA. That seems like a reasonable statement.
The US government pushes a lot of propaganda about homosexuality as
well. And they shift gears to suit its needs. Senator Larry Craig is a
perfect example. Fellow Republicans are trying to force him from
office because they suspect he is gay, a charge he denies. Most media
outlets want him to resign because is gay as well, even though no one
has prooved he is gay and he denies the charge.

Those are noble words, but it's too bad you don't believe in open
discussions about the Holocaust among scholars, which includes Mr.
Ahmadinejad, whom incidentally has a PhD.

There's a difference between open scholars in a forum that has set
scholarly rules for discussing specific aspects of the event and
holding a conference where those who openly deny the Holocaust or
decree that the Holocaust is a bunch of zionist lies are invited to
speak with equal accredation.

Not true, didn't happen. In addition, the President of Columbia
University brought up the Holocaust, not Mr. Ahmadinejad.

By that same token, you'd be advocating
a conference at whatever US venue you want to discuss the founding
century of America that's giving an entire day to how the US actively
encouraged the raping of Native American women.

We're not discussing rape, we're discussing comments made by Mr.
Ahmadinejad, which do not include denial of basic historical facts.

And a PhD doesn't make you an expert.

The president of Columbia University said Mr. Ahmadinejad was
uneducated. Call him what you will, but don't call someone with a PhD
uneducated.

It means you've written the
requisite paper in the general field it's assigned. You might want a
botanist calculating fuel ratios for the space shuttle, but I don't.

In short, it means the person in question is highly educated.

Then end the Jihad, IEDs and the suicide bombings.

Those who live by the sword die by the sword. It's too bad you don't
understand the word "forgive" or the concept of "turn the other
cheek."

Because I believe peace needs to come from BOTH sides? <snip>

More importantly, put aside your rhetoric and put it where it really
belongs -- in a political forum. Here in this forum, we deal with REAL
conflicts: John vs Paul, Yoko vs Beatles, and so on.

I was not the first to start a thread about Mr. Ahmadinejad on
rec.music.beatles.

You are the ones keeping this thread alive. If you and others respond
to my comments with obvious lies, I can't let you guys get away with
having the last word.

Salvador Astucia

http://www.jfkmontreal.com

.

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