Re: Ahmadinejad never denied the Holocaust, it was the media.

On Oct 9, 6:39 pm, comics...@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Oct 6, 1:18 am, Salvador Astucia <cropduster...@xxxxxx> wrote:

To lots of people who promote anti-missile defense systems, human life
means little. To them, if we would lose a million or so people in a
retaliatory nuclear attack, that isn't necessarily a loss. MAD is as
dead as the Kennedys.

<snip> Some generals and planners think that way -- but the
majority of those NOT working at the Pentagon still continue to
promote 'mutual survival' as originating in the same thought as MAD:

The Pentagon and the President are the ones who set policy, so they
are the only ones who matter. Mutually Assured Destruction is Dead.


You are confusing religious doctrine with the practices of certain
individuals who subscribe to a particular religion. For example, the
opinions of the late Reverend Jerry Falwell had little to do with the
teachings of Jesus. He supported the Iraq war, he supported capital
punishment.

Christianity allows for retaliatory punishments (the "eye for an eye"
which originates in Sumerian legal code). <snip>

Not true. Jesus of Nazareth is the central figure in Christianity, not
every passage in the Bible. Jesus rejected eye for an eye.

Jesus would never support because He encouraged forgiveness and love
and treating your neighbor as you want to be treated.

<snip> Christianity's record is not clean not full of "forgiveness and love"
for their neighbours. The first Jihad was caused by the Pope's
allowance of slaughter and pillaging throughout the Crusades. The
Inquisition found Christians slaughtering Jews or forcing them to
renounce their beliefs.

Where in the Bible did Jesus tell people to follow the teachings of
the Pope? Where in the entire Bible does anyone say to do that?

hand, the Talmud contains the Kol Nidre prayer which encourages people
to break their vows and promises when dealing with gentiles.

That's a statement from ignorance. Kol Nidre does not encourage people
to break their vows with gentiles; <snip>

Sorry, I'm not going to debate the Kol Nidre prayer with you because
I've got all the books of the Talmud on CD, plus many are available on
line. Check out http://www.come-and-hear.com if you want to read what
the Talmud says about the Kol Nidre. What I stated is completely
factual and it is based on writings in the Talmud, so there isn't any
point in debating it with Kol Nidre denier.

You seem to be saying that the first amendment right of free speech
does not or should not apply to the Holocaust because it is somehow
special. I strongly disagree with that sentiment. Americans have to a
right to express serious views on *any* topic, even the Holocaust.

Firstly, I am not saying comments on the Holocaust are exempt from
free speech.

Secondly, I am always fascinated at how many Americans actually
believe that the First Ammendment is all encompassing. It's not. For
one thing, the American Supreme Court has ruled it illegal to yell
"Fire!" in a crowded theatre. <snip>

Scholars debating whether the death toll of six million is accurate or
not is hardly the same as yelling Fire in a movie theatre.

That is true. My question is why do we support a loser like Israel?

Israel has produced nobel peace prize winners. It's produced a
tremendous amount of scholarship in the field of archaeology. It's
been a great example for reforestation of desert climates. It exports
wine and oranges around the world. It's not a "loser" by any
definition.

Israel also evokes hatred among its Arab/Muslim neighbors.
Unfortunately, those nations produce a significant amount of the
world's oil supply. I would trade archaeology expertise and wines and
oranges for oil any day :-)


Life would be so much easier for everyone if we would just cut ties
with Israel and befriend her enemies. Oil prices would drop quickly if
America would dump Israel.

Oil prices would drop even faster if we burned all the churches, put
Britney in a birkha and converted to Islam.

That is completely false. Muslims respect the teachings of Jesus and
Christianity. Most Jews don't feel the same way.

Palestine was alive and well on November 2, 1917, when the Balfour
Declaration was ratified by Britain.

The Balfour Declaration, which you detail below, identifies Palestine
as a geographical area -- not a nation with specific geographic
boundries and administrative government. The nopn-Israeli territory in
the forties used the term "Trans-Jordan" on its stamps, for example.

You claimed Palestine did not exist until 1948. I merely showed people
that that statement was a blatant untruth.

They stole a vast amount of land in the Six Day War in June 1967.

I was referencing the 1948 borders, which is land also identified in
the stolen property claim.

Between the two dates, the Six Day War in 1967 was by far the more
outrageous because even the UN said it was illegal. That wasn't true
in 1948.

UN quickly ruled that the land was taken illegally and must be
returned, but Israel has refused to comply with the UN for forty
years, although they have been forced to return some of the stolen
land little by little through internal conflict, and because Arabs in
the surrounding countries have made their lives a living hell. That's
what happens when you steal other people's property. Pay-back is hell.

Don't cite the UN: it's a paper tiger with no real power since the
start of the Korean conflict in 1951. <snip>

Funny how Zionists love to cite UN violations when discussing
Ahmadinejad or Saddam Hussein. Yet if anyone mentions Israel's obvious
UN violations, suddenly the UN becomes a paper tiger. Apparently the
Kol Nidre is alive and well on Usenet :-)

I do not include the Spanish Jews (the ones expelled by Queen Isabella
500 years ago) with the Khazars of Eastern Europe. Many of them
migrated to Mexico,

WTF? Most went to Morocco or to North Africa. The number that went to
Mexico is incredibly small.

I said "many" went to Mexico, not all. And most of those converted to
Catholicism, so that explains why they are not counted in modern
Jewry, although they are descendants of Spanish Jews, and are not
descended from Khazars.


<snip> Zionism is not based on religion. It's based on history.

Hogwash. Zionism *lives* in the Old Testament.

<snip> I defy you to name one scholar who claims
that no Jews died in Nazi camps during World War II.

There was a teacher in Alberta, Canada who published articles on it
and taught it to his students. And this was not Zionist propaganda --
not unless you're calling the CBC a Zionist organization. If you are,
then this discussion has to end right now.

At the risk of being called anti-Semitic, does this teacher happen to
have a name?

leader Samuel Untermyer organized a boycott against German goods which
began in 1933 when Hitler rose to power. Untermyer wanted Hitler
thrown out. That is not a conspiracy theory, it is fact, and it had a
lot to do with the fate of German Jews.

That's a very weak causal chain. Jews within Germany had no choice but
to buy German goods; Jews outside of Germany were not exclusive in
refusing German goods -- especially when the emphasis on national
goods helped local economies suffering from the Depression.

I think you're suggesting that German Jews did not participate in the
boycott of German goods as a means of getting Hitler thrown out of
office. If that is what you are suggesting, you need to go to the
library and read some history books. BTW, this is pretty close to a
Holocaust discussion, and I don't feel like anyone has yelled fire in
a movie theater.

The real reason Jews were targeted by the Nazi government was that
Germans didn't believe they were defeated, but rather surrendered
without complete explanation from its leaders. (This is something I've
heard from a lot of people living in Germany then.) The targeting of
Jews, Gypsies, communists, homosexuals and other deviant creatures

I never claimed Jews were deviant creatures.

was the Nazi way of blaming the surrender and its subsequent hardships on
an internal source that wasn't connected to the romantic image it
wanted to portray. An agricultural bounty easily harvested by strng
Aryans was the Nazi ideal because it was the opposite image of the
multiethnic, urban reality Germany had become -- much in the way that
Marx portrayed the communist ideal as being happy rural rather than
struggling dirty urban.

The so-called Revisionists claim Jews were put in camps to be
separated from the populace because they were viewed as undesirable.
But the Nazis' intention was never genocide, according to the
Revisionists. When the allied forces began pounding Germany, *all
prisoners* were neglected to some extent and there was an unfortunate
outbreak of typhus at some of the camps, which explains why most
corpses found in those horrible places were so emaciated. When massive
deaths occur from disease, the bodies need to be cremated or buried
quickly. That's the Revisionist version of events, which has little to
do with denying Jews died in camps.

Just look at Israel's violent history. For example, look at the
bombing of the King David Hotel in the 40s by Jewish terrorists.
Menachem Begin led the terrorist group, Irgun, and he went on to
become Prime Minister. I would never trust a country with the bomb who
would elect a cold-blooded murderer like Begin. You asked for proof,
there it is. I can supply several more examples, but I'll be kind.

And yet, you come from a country that is proud of its violent
TERRORIST history. America's Declaration of Independence and
subsequent battles against the British had already taken lives long
before news reached the Parliament of HRH George III.

Not cold blooded gutless murder of innocents like Irgun did to the
victims at the King David Hotel.

And you missed the point that Begin also dismissed Irgun as being
terrorist in nature, and vowed that was an avenue the country would
never follow again.

Cite?

we need to treat each other with respect, even our blood
enemies, or we risk destroying everything.

And that's the biggest point you miss. The west respects Israel
because it understands Israel;

That is a huge mistake on our part. We understand that Israel has
ignored countless UN resolution, and we don't seem to care. That is
why the Arabs and Muslims don't take us seriously.

Iran has been through a great deal. They have endured mistreatment
from the United States, Israel, and our allies of the West.

By "our" then you're saying that you are Iranian by nationality, or
that your family is of Iranian descent. <snip>

If you're trying to insult me by calling me Persion/Iranian, don't
bother. I like them. Frankly, I respect Mr. Ahmadinejad much more
than Bush.

stop name calling merely because people like Mr. Ahmadinedjad do not
agree with our history books regarding the details the fate of German
Jews during World War II. The war was over a long time ago.

You clearly don't get it. Mr. Ahmadinedjad needs to position himself
against the Americans if he is to keep the support of the hardliners
within Iran. The Americans use his position on the Holocaust as a
second example of his difference from western ideals, <snip>

We have already debated the Holocaust, so that is a dead issue.
Americans react to Holocaust comments because we've been Holocausted
to death. Ahmadinejad is correct when he says it has become a religion
of sorts.

The greatest victory in western history is the Second World War.
Stopping the Holocaust is a service to humanity that goes *above*
national borders. For them, standing by their version of these events
-- the version that the East stands by as well -- is an important part
of their history.

Those are noble words, but it's too bad you don't believe in open
discussions about the Holocaust among scholars, which includes Mr.
Ahmadinejad, whom incidentally has a PhD.

We need to get past the bitterness before we nuke the entire planet.

Then end the Jihad, IEDs and the suicide bombings.

Those who live by the sword die by the sword. It's too bad you don't
understand the word "forgive" or the concept of "turn the other
cheek."

Salvador

http://www.jfkmontreal.com

.

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