Re: for the women in my life.....

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:26:12 -0700, Evolution <myname@xxxxxxx> wrote:


Maureen wrote:

Not one response from any male has been good enough for you, from what
I've read, no matter how conciliatory the tone.

I don't think that's true, Maureen, contrary to what a couple of posters
have claimed. I have been nothing but pleasant to anyone discussing
this subject without attacking me personally. Robert is one example.

You have been largely *un*pleasant, Laurie. Speaking in a soft voice and
using "please" and "thank you" isn't all there is to being "pleasant."
Just as their are far more vile things said *without* four letter words
sometimes than with them.

I can see why the guys wouldn't want to respond--it's fatigued me just
to read this thread myself.
Yes, men are responsible for much of the violent behavior in the
world.
Yes, men have led the world into a bad place.
What is the point of all this though?

I think the point is that we want to make men aware of the severity of
the problem of rape, its position in our lives, and the fear we walk
around with. To have them acknowledge this, instead of implying that
fear of false accusations of rape are just as scary or big of a problem;
to have them stop claiming that because rapes aren't often reported in
the military, that it's not a big problem; to have them stop turning
every discussion about rape into a male victim thread.

Then stop introducing the issue to us as if we are the criminals.

And the reason why I have opened up and admitted for the first time to
anyone, that I was raped twice (that was very difficult for me, as I'm
sure it was for Ruth), was to help show how often it happens and doesn't
get reported. Yes, it's anecdotal, but I was hoping others would speak
up too, and that it would make some of these guys see that many of the
women around them have silently suffered for years... and help them to
see that there is a lot of anger out there; anger which isn't directed
personally towards them as good individuals, and that they shouldn't
take personally.

You don't think we realize that there is a lot of anger out there? I'm
sure I can speak for my people when I say that we wouldn't take it
personally if you didn't make it so.

I have been very careful to say "most men" when generalizing, and not to
imply that most men are rapists

Do you agree with angelagrace, that "the overwhelming majority of men"
have no problem with non-consensual sex?

Ruth's post was angry, and she blurred
the lines. But still, why can't men just accept her anger, acknowledge
it, understand it, instead of making themselves the victim? It's
unbelievable.

Because her anger almost always comes with the gross generalizations
we've been arguing about. She can't express her anger without tarring
Billy Innes and FerretBill and Steve Weiss and Chris Barber and.. with
her bile. I've been arguing with her about this issue for years. In
fact, from that standpoint alone, I am actually very happy this thread
happened. It was nice, for a change, to not be the only voice saying the
things Robert and MBP and I have been saying in this thread. It was
"nice" in a different sort of way to have someone other than Ruth to
argue with this about...you hadn't been around, but angelagrace in prior
threads took more of a hit and run approach, but her underlying beliefs
came through loud and clear.

By the way, I too, was horrified by what Ruth said.
It stupefied me, though, and I found I had nothing to add--like MBP.

I don't see how making men the hate-objects does anything to advance
the dialogue on this subject--it just makes them defensive--not
exactly a state conducive to learning, I'm thinking.

When Ruth has a cold, she gets 15 replies to comfort her/cheer her up...
not a word for this, except for me. The reason I singled out men as not
replying, is one, a woman did reply and two, this group is mostly men.
But you're right, that comment was inappropriate. Still, the only
replies were to my comment, not to the subject or Ruth's post directly.
I think that is significant. And shameful... for all those men AND
women who ignored her admission.

You are so full of ***.

I hope in the end, as in the article by the women's studies teacher,
that the good men in here will think twice about their reactions to
anger on this subject. And that the others will stop trying to prove
that rape isn't a problem and question the fact that most rapes are not
even reported.

You see, when women express anger at *those men who do evil things*
(even if they say "men" for convenience), for the good men to take it
personally, isn't conducive to learning and healing, either. It's a
slap in the face.

It's like when a European says, "How can Americans be so stupid as to
re-elect bush?" I don't get insulted as an American. I say, "I know,
how could *they*?"

You can say you didn't vote for him.

I've never raped anyone. Not only that, but I am one of the tiny
minority of men who actually thinks that sort of thing is BAD.

Happy?

******************************************************************
Kevin McClave

"To justify himself, each relies on
the other's crime." ~Albert Camus
******************************************************************
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