Re: OT: NASA quietly corrects GW data

Rob Kleinschmidt wrote:
On Aug 16, 7:19 pm, "J. Clarke" <jclarke.use...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Rob Kleinschmidt wrote:
On Aug 16, 7:11 pm, Steve T <r...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Calgary <actual.rider_remove_the_obvio...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

At the end of the day we should be working to reduce our use of
fossil fuels.

Exactly right. We should be building nuclear power plants at top
speed. We have the technology to generate 100% of our electricity
and discontinue all use of fossil fuels for that purpose. Combine
that with electric vehicles that use the nuclear produced power and
our use of fossil fuels can be cut in half in 10 years.

Except that battery storage isn't there yet, IMHO.
I don't think you want to tie the success of nuclear
to present day battery technology.

Huh? It appears to have escaped your notice that (a) there are many,
many uses for electricity other than powering vehicles, and (b) the
technology for generating electricity using nuclear energy is very
well establishe--technologically it has been "successful" for
decades, the obstacle to its widespread use is political, not
technological or economic.

It's not an especially competetive technology at present,
even with a liability cap. It's also baseline rather than
peak power, partly I think because of cost.

Most of the cost is the result of construction delays brought on by
environmental groups whose intent was to delay construction for the
purpose of raising the costs. If government tells the environmental
groups to STFU and starts giving them long jail terms when they trespass
on or obstruct the entrances to construction sites that problem will go
away.

Assuming for the moment that the waste issue was
under control (I don't think it is), a better bet would
be to use nuclear to displace natural gas, then
use the natural gas to run hybrids.

Natural gas? Natural gas is one of the cleaner fuels for producing
electricity. If your objective is to reduce greenhouse emissions,
start with replacing coal, then oil, then gas.

And why run hybrids? Natural gas runs internal combustion engines
just fine. The problem there is that if the tank is not designed
into the vehicle then it usually doesn't leave much storage space.

The previous poster had suggested EVs. I don't think
EV technology is there yet. I suggested hybrids because
they're more fuel efficient than an IC engine alone, particularly
when engine load's are low, as in urban driving.

Fuel cells work fine.

Incidentally, hydrogen, the production of which using electricity is
a well established technology, will also run an internal combustion
engine, and can be used directly in fuel cells as well--that
technology is also mature--the difficulty with fuel cells is not
that we don't know how to make an efficient, reliable cell--fuel
cells went to the Moon in the '60s--but that we're trying to make
one that can use gasoline or natural gas or some other fossil fuel
instead of hydrogen. So rather than relying on batteries, use
nuclear to produce hydrogen and use the hydrogen to run fuel cell
electrics, internal combustion conventional vehicles, or hybrids.

Hydrogen is hard to store and is often extracted from
hydrocarbons with resulting emissions.

So don't extract it from hydrocarbons. GEEZ. Or do extract it from
hydrocarbons, capture and store the carbon, and use it to make
structural elements, where it's captured unless there's a destructive
fire that destroys the structure element.

As for being "hard to store", there are numerous hydrogen fuel cell and
hydrogen internal combustion powered vehicles on the road with millions
of miles of experience. The storage problems seem to have been solved.

Methane is a
hydrogen rich fuel with a technology that's pretty well
established already. I'm not holding my breath waiting
for hydrogen to arrive.

Methane is a fossil fuel that still produces carbon emissions.
Eventually it's going to run out too. And it's difficult to make a
methane fuel cell--to use methane you pretty much have to use a
combustion engine of some kind.

As for the waste issue, the issue with nuclear waste is not how to
get rid ot it, it's how to store it so that we can get it back if
someone finds a use for it. If we just wanted to be rid of it,
dropping it down a Mohole in a subdction zone would do the job.
Won't be seen again until it's done a full convection cycle in the
mantle, by which time it will be just another rock.

Subduction zones my ass. Rapid subduction is
rapid in the same sense that L.A. is rapidly moving
north past San Francisco. An inch or two per year, maybe.
Somebody thought subduction sounded cool without
bothering to figure out subduction.

So it's an inch or two per year. So frelling _what_? If you want it
gone _now_ then launch an Orion full of radwaste into the sun once a
decade.

Hybrids with plug in recharge capability maybe, but I
know that with refueling stops, I want to be able to
occasionally cover at least 500 miles in a day and
all-electrics aren't even close yet.

There are fuel cell cars in daily use with ranges of over 100 miles
(they have a star on the front and you can take your California
driving test in one), with no recharge, you just pump them full of
hydrogen and go. The next generation will have a range of 250
miles. The vehicle technology just doesn't have any showstoppers.
The difficulty is getting a network of filling stations in place and
increasing hydrogen production as demand increases.

As I said, I don't think hydrogen is going to happen anytime
soon or cure the world's problems when it does.

No, it's not going to "cure the world's problems". No energy technology
is going to "cure the world's problems". The issue is not "curing the
world's problems" but eliminating CO2 emissions from fossil fuels while
going to a technology that is long-term sustainable.

But you seem to be having a real problem accepting that hydrogen fueled
cars and trucks and buses are on the road now and working well.

Reformulation
of methane seems way more promising. You can buy a NG
commute vehicle with conventional engine today, complete
with fast lane stickers.

Been able to buy NG powered vehicles of any kind, from commuter cars to
18-wheelers, as long as I can remember. So what?

There are permeability problems and the question of
how it's manufactured. Hydrogen from water via PV
driven electrolysis would be nice, but that's not on
the horizon yet.

No, but by nuclear driven electrolysis can be done right now today.

As for "permability problems", every fuel has "problems". Solving those
problems is what engineers _do_.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


.

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