Re: Groundsman - public response, kinda long

BILL AKA BACKFIRE BILL wrote:
> Welcome.... you can have a seat at my table and drink with me anytime
> ... don't worry about those folks at the other tables They have the
> same rights we do according to the 1st amendment

Bill, I don't know why you are emailng me privately, but IMO
it's not necessary. If you want to do Groundsman or any
other newbie a favor, and really give them the lay of the land,
you should be discussing this here where they can see it.

And if you get flamed for what you said to me privately, by
now hopefully you realize that flaming is part and parcel of
this place...take it or leave it. I'd suggest you take it with a
sense of humor until it subsides, and use a little prudence
in your future posts.

To the rest of you, I'm not sure if *I'll* get flamed for taking
this public, but I didn't ask him to ping me or anything. The
reason it's public is because as I was writing a second reply
to Bill, it occurred to me that I am sharing my percpetions of
RMH so far. I've been here about as long as he has, so I'm
relatively new. If I am way off base in my observations, feel
free to whap me with a clue-X-4 and correct as needed.

If you all see it as wrong to take this public, flame me as
needed...but in the meantime, cash is on the bar for anyone
who cares to have a drink on me. Reading the rest, of course,
is entirely optional. <G>

On 11/18/05, Bill wrote to me:
> Thanks for taking the time to read all that and I know I
> have a long ways to go ... but I will now and always look to
> help the new comer that is being run off

<sigh> You still don't get it. I'll tell you what I think about
this, just take it FWIW. New people in *any* group don't
just blend right in - regulars have to get to know them
somehow. This is a tight group of bikers (many of whom
seem to be intelligent, talented folks I might add). They've
been hanging together for years, online and IRL; they have
their own way of doing things, their own way of relating to
each other, and you ain't gonna change that. You can join
because you already fit, or because you wanna try to fit -
it's as simple as that.

They ask new people to lurk and get a feel for the group,
intro themselves, and participate. They ask them to use
very simple etiquette in posting. Some say things gruffly or
even rudely to new people -- so what?? They ain't doing it
any differently than they would IRL in most cases, I'll bet.

I really don't see any of it as running off newbies. When
they post with a dig, the manner of response says a lot. If a
newbie responds to a barb thrown their way by whining and
getting defensive, they know pretty quickly that they are
thin-skinned. Ever notice how much they poke fun of each
other and themselves? They're tossing the same treatment to
newcomers to see how they respond. And when the newbies
whine, get defensive, and don't pay attention at all to the
simple things, well, their patience runs thin pretty quickly.
Wouldn't yours, if you were in their shoes?

And by the way, if newbies aren't computer savvy and
articulate enough to make themselves understood, well,
that's too bad - because that IS part of the basic nature of a
group like this that keeps in touch online. We can either
lurk and learn how to communicate well, or go away.

It ain't a hand-holding kinda bunch. Every time you try to
hold a newcomer's hand, you look foolish (not to mention
condescending), because that just ain't the nature of this
group from what I see. If someone is the helpless or lazy sort
who won't take the time to look for their own answers and do
some homework before asking questions, then they just don't
belong in RMH. If someone doesn't take the time to search the
group history to see if their question has been covered a
million times before, they look lazy. I often see people
suggest answers and a look at the faq. When they whine
because nobody answered their question, the flaming
and digs begin...and that's as it should be. Old, stale
topics getting beat to death again and again is what
makes groups die out.

And If someone doesn't have the courtesy to learn the
traditions and just wants it all explained to them, they're
not gonna fit. Every one of the regulars did all that, online
and IRL. They've earned their spot at the bar, and it took
some time and effort.

Keep holding the hands of newbies, and you will forever
cement yourself as someone who just doesn't get it, who just
doesn't fit. I was baited too, you know - not as much as you,
but a little. I gave straightforward answers, and when someone
suggested I was stump-stupid, I ignored it. Don't know the
guy at all, but who gives a flying ***? My intelligence and
sometimes lack of it will speak for itself over time. I have
nothing to prove.

Why the *** would I waste my time and the group's to try
to prove I'm smart? Maybe I'm not in their eyes, and I have
no control over that. Being defensive about it or trying
to convince someone how smart or tough I am would get me
nowhere. You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to
fold 'em. My ego does not depend on what some guy in the
next state or the other end of the country might say or suggest
about me. If anyone thinks I'm stump stupid, ten bucks says
someday I'll meet him IRL and think he's pretty cool, or funny,
or perhaps that he's an ***, maybe (tm) or not <G>.

And maybe he'll meet me and think "Yep, dumb as a box
of rocks," or "How does she remember to breathe," or
"marginally intelligent." But in the grand scheme of things,
does it really matter to me? Nah. If who I am fits here, cool.
If it doesn't, then maybe I don't belong here. Pretty simple.

I said it before to you, I'll say it again - I saw your initial
posts here. You ingored the welcomes and the friendly
advice - and yes, some *were* friendly. You chose to see
only a few digs tossed your way, and responded only to
them. IIRC, you didn't say thanks to anyone who said
welcome to you. Was the glass half empty?

You still seem miffed about the reaction you got when you
tried to sell something. Ever notice that many spare parts
are put up for auction, and not personally sold for money?
Think long and hard about that. Hell, *any* group doesn't
like newbies selling ***. These folks sell their stuff and the
money goes to Eddie. They have every right to be even more
suspicious than a regular usenet or other type of group
when it comes to newbies peddling spare parts.

It's pretty obvious to me that you CANNOT be the overly
senstive type yourself, *or* on behalf of other newcomers, if
you wanna fit in here.

That's not to say that these aren't sensitive people, either.
Have you ever looked back at the archives and all these folks
have been through with each other? Eddie's site is just *one*
example of how they feel about each other. Look back at when
members of RMH have passed away or lost family members, been
through accidents or illnesses, or just dealing with some of
the disappointments and difficult *** that comes everyone's
way in life. Ignore the chaff, and really *look*. They're like
family, they've done it all together. Look at how they share
the good stuff - weddings, anniversaries, babies born, kids
graduating or coming back in one piece from the Middle East.
I'm thinkin' your thin-skinned reaction to a little flaming
seems incredibly trivial to them in light of the many life
experiences they've shared.

Does that make it seem like a closed group? It's not, if you
look again. New people come all the time. If they make an
honest effort fit in, they're welcomed both online and IRL, and
they become part of it. They'll never have the previous history
with those who've been here a while, but history is being
built on a daily basis. That's the way it is in any group of
people, and you *can't* rush it, and you can't force it. New
people can just join in and start building a good history, or
not - it's up to us. If we don't fit, we have no one to blame
but ourselves.

I've been hanging out here roughly the same amount of time
as you; I've only met one person IRL - it was fun, but it was
much too brief. My dream is to be able to do some long distance
riding around this beautiful country of ours, so this group is a
good fit for me - they're all about riding, and all about living life
to its fullest, and constantly learning and changing. I'm poking
around in the archives all the time, finding a lot of helpful and
interesting stuff - both stuff related to motorcycles *and* regular
life. Hopefully I'll be able to meet more of them IRL as I begin to
venture further in my travels.

> And I will make it to at least 1 irl so a few can meet me and
> then maybe some opinions will change

Maybe it will - but why is that so important to you? The few
little flames your way are just words on a screen, yet they
seem to have affected you greatly, based on your reactions.
Have you considered that maybe this group is not a good fit
for you? I really think you should ask yourself why you react
so strongly. What I see is someone who takes this stuff far
too personally, and it makes me wonder if some other life
experiences are getting in your way of just being able to
take this group for what it is - a group of people who fit
well with each other and have become close.

You cannot change the opinions others hold about you
by force. You can only be yourself, and see if you fit. If
you don't, or find it hard to do in this newsgroup, maybe a
different group would be better. But IMO, you are doing
newcomers a disservice by inviting them to your table and
holding their hands. You must know the story about how
it's better to teach someone to fish, rather than just give
him the food...please think about that.

> as for the FAQ's I did read but I gotr into some *** with
> "Panhead" and of course made myself look worse I have know
> learned his game and don't respond but he changes day to day

Sorry, but that's no excuse. He's really easy to spot, and
thinking or taking time to cool off before you post to anyone,
not just Panhead, would be a good idea.

You said a while back that you were leaving, and you're still
here. Now, I'm not trying to be a bitch by pointing that out -
I just find it interesting that you are still here. There must be
some attraction that holds you. Why try to change something
that obviously holds your interest?

I like this place the way it is, personally. Hopefully you know
by know that your attempts to change it are fruitless. You're
just gonna tire yourself out for nothing.

> Thanks again
> I am off back to the mens room

Here, take a beer with ya...and think hard about letting other
newbies learn for themselves. Whether you see it or not,
they have every opportunity to join in. it's a bad idea to deny
folks the opportunity to make their own mistakes.

--
Monica
2001 FXSTDI 'the Doosh'
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." -Yogi Berra

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