Re: Well, rightards? Was: Placebo effect was: kenoki footpads

On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 19:38:22 -0400, "David L. Burkhead"
<dburkhead@xxxxxxx> wrote:

<hal@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:qner44l3ann8p31j760jsjabiok99o6nft@xxxxxxxxxx
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 18:28:42 -0400, "David L. Burkhead"
<dburkhead@xxxxxxx> wrote:


No, the difference is that he's actually _understanding_ what the
article, and others on the subject, actually say rather than trying to
"interpret" them to fit with your preconceived views.

I don't have to try to "interpret" what they say. Their conclusions
are very clear.

There conclusions _are_ very clear--they're just not what you think they
are.

So just what exactly is your contention (other than to argue with
anything I say no matter what)? Are you claiming AD drugs are
effective in the treatment of depression? If so, then please cite
your study. Don't forget to include margin of error of the study.
Pharmacology reports from the manufacturer of the drug doesn not count
as drugs companies have proven they are willing to fudge results to
keep their drugs on the market.

Ah, yes, the old double standard where Hal asks for what he doesn't
provide.

The study you cited would be entirely adequate if you actually
understood it. All it says, really, is that for short term treatment of
mild cases of depression, placebos work as well as the specific
antidepressant drugs covered (which is only a small subset of all the
medications on the market). This is exactly what one would expect since for
that kind of treatment simple counciling or other kinds of non-medication
therapy is also found to be highly effective. As the severity of the
depression increases, these alternate methods (such as placebos) become less
effective. You keep repeating that, so I know you read it. As the severity
of the depression increases, the placebos become less effective. The
medication, however, does _not_ become less effective.

In severe cases of depression, or in longer term treatment--exactly the
kind of cases where medication is more likely to be prescribed--the
medication shows a distinctly greater effect than placebos according to the
study you cited. You twist and turn trying to make something out of it
being the placebos being less effective in those cases rather than the
medication being more effective, but that's the point: In cases of severe
depression the placebos become less effective but the medication does not.
That, right there, is a clear difference between placebos and the actual
medication. And that's what's said right there in the study you cited.

Your own cite defeats your case.

no, you're just trying to read into it what is not there and ignoring
the main point.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2234409

Clinical effectiveness of usual care with or without antidepressant
medication for primary care patients with minor or mild-major
depression: a randomized equivalence trial

Findings
Table 2 shows that, in the intention-to-treat (n = 181) as well as the
per-protocol analysis (n = 133), equivalence of UCandAD and UCnoAD
could be demonstrated at 6 weeks follow-up (the 95% CI of the
difference in improvement in MADRS scores between the treatment groups
lies between the equivalence margins of -5 and 5). However, at 13, 26,
or 52 weeks follow-up equivalence could not be demonstrated.

Superiority of either treatment could not be demonstrated
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
; no statistical significant difference in effectiveness of either
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
treatment could be demonstrated at any time point in the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
intention-to-treat analysis.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Conclusion
UCandAD was as effective as UCnoAD over the first 6 weeks, but not at
13, 26, and 52 weeks. However, superiority of either treatment could
not be demonstrated either. The question whether antidepressants add
any clinical effect to usual care remains unresolved. We recommend
future studies to look for subgroups of patients who may benefit from
antidepressants.


so, in other words, THERE IS NO PROVEN BENEFIT OF ADDING AD DRUGS TO
OTHER TREATMENT METHODS OF DEPRESSION !!!!!!!!!

There, that clear enough for you?

Now feel free to pony up your proof. But since there IS NONE I won't
have to worry about trying to refute it.

Hal
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Well, rightards? Was: Placebo effect was: kenoki footpads
    ... question DO work for patients at the extreme end of depression. ... depression in their response to drug. ... Placebos are less effective in severely depressed patients. ... Thus, instead of saying that the medication doesn't work, it rather says ...
    (rec.martial-arts)
  • Re: Well, rightards? Was: Placebo effect was: kenoki footpads
    ... Are you claiming AD drugs are ... mild cases of depression, placebos work as well as the specific ... these alternate methods (such as placebos) become less ... medication, however, does _not_ become less effective. ...
    (rec.martial-arts)
  • Koochers Krazy Kooks looking for a few good suckers to RAPE
    ... them to perform only AS WELL AS BUT NOT BETTER THAN placebos. ... this idea though I would not limit it to psychotherapy. ... the depression will return when the medication is ... But medication is not a permanent solution. ...
    (sci.psychology.psychotherapy)
  • Re: Anti-depressants barely...
    ... them to perform only AS WELL AS BUT NOT BETTER THAN placebos. ... this idea though I would not limit it to psychotherapy. ... the depression will return when the medication is ... But medication is not a permanent solution. ...
    (sci.psychology.psychotherapy)
  • Re: Depressions
    ... I am interested to hear what you believe depression ... I suppose that I agree that fighting the feelings won't help. ... Antidepressant medication has helped me. ... except that perhaps you say that there is nothing needing treatment. ...
    (sci.psychology.misc)
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