Re: Force/Power + CHI

Renli wrote:


Number two, when you stand up normally (not in some crazy position but
in a normal or whatever-relaxed position) and lift your hands above
your head (palms forward) and pull your shoulder back and then inhale,
where does the chi flow or tend to accumulate? Please provide a small
explanation for your answers which details in some part why you are
saying so.
You assume I'm able to generate.. I've not trained for that; mine was on
the receiving end.

I see. I'm talking about what it feels like from the perspective of
generation.
Caught that; again, in our art, we had a different approach to energies; our exercises concentrated on the sensing of directed intent more than the involvement of energy in strikes. Teacher moved before we progressed further, so who knows if we would have hit that later.

I humbly put forth that based on my experience from that viewpoint, I
am qualified to present what is at worst a close analogy with which
the average untrained joe can see that chi is real. I did it by
presenting the doorway trick and saying "Looook! There's chi in them
thar hills!!"

And everyone called bull*** - especially the people that had
absolutely no experience with generation.... ahem :/
See, There's the thing.. Taken to extreme, we can say that Ki is used while spooning soup; That was my problem with that example.. it's simply too generic and has a readily available and much simpler muscular explanation.


It's not that there's no correlation so much that there's a nice, simple
explanation for that one that requires no stepping out of current
knowledge base. Whether or not there's more than one way to accomplish
that effect is something else.

In this case it is the be all and end all; you cannot apply the
knowledge you learn about ATP and what not to determine what training
method will achieve a certain result. You can OTOH rely on feeling to
derive that a certain exercise will produce a certain result. Deal
with the feeling and you're dealing with CHI. Deal with book knowledge
and chemical reactions, and you will never be able to use what you
learned to do kung fu.
An understanding of the physical side of things is intrinsic in any training regimen, and could only enhance what you're talking about.

It isn't embarrasing. It's very obvious, very matter-of-fact.


Dunno.. you throw out the 'feel' as an established and accepted premise.

The feeling is similar enough that it can be discussed in reasonably
specific terms.
Fair

That 'feel' has a *whole* range of attachments to it, not the least of
which would be the absolute need to have control over your emotional
state to achieve consistent results.

The kernel of morality in martial arts... if you'fe read "Illustrated
Canon" by Chen Xin he basically states that without being in control
of your emotional state you cannot express these results. So nothing
new here.
Actually, whole bunch new, based on the fact that you're talking strictly about a classical approach to MA; there are whole *hosts* of arts out there who breed emotional attachment, *not* detachment while dealing with combat.


you say you have felt ki: "I've seen it, felt it,"
please expand on this, i am sure everyone would love for you to tell
them what ki looks like and feels like.
Sure.. this is going to sound weird though, so bear with me

S'ok, I could tell you a couple stories too.

This is going way back (over a decade) and my teacher is introducing
energy strikes and the like.. He does it by standing at one end of the
room and getting us to advance until we get to him. Some make it all the
way, some don't. When my turn comes, I start towards him and about
halfway I feel a tensing kind of feeling in the mid-section and just
stop. There was no pain, no 'strike' only the light tensing.

I know exactly what you are talking about. In general this only works
on "your students". It's an acknowledged technique within Chinese
Martial Arts inasmuch as it only works on your students. There's many
many stories of this and the explanation is always the same. In short
it would never work in a real fight, although it does highlight that
there is more to your muscular action than your direct, conscious
desire.

Caveats:
- I was young and stupid, and somewhat impressionable
- There was a *lot* of manipulation in this teacher's approach, so I
can't discount a cue I didn't clue in on. (read "the mysteries of the
art" type of teacher)

Conclusions:
- The teacher did something that was comfortably outside my realm of
understanding.

Basically he used his intimate knowledge of your skill and ability
combined with your fear of his skill and ability in such a way as to
make you think you needed to do something which you didn't need to do.
Yup.. worked a lot of that out as I continued on in training (and in experience)
In cases where the teacher is doing it viciously (intentionally
deceptively) the effects of the conditioning can be profound. In some
cased (you know who) the master may even believe he has stumbled on a
new technique or that he has accquired special supernormal skills.
"I am a rock.. I am a rock..."
In
every case, "real" contact methods of chi development are never
employed. This is why the false skill is allowed to perpetuate itself;
because the real method was not taught in the first place...
In this case, I took it as a demonstration of the possible, not of a useful technique. As such, it made a lasting impression :D


Based on that, I believe that *something* is out there, but as to
whether it's manipulatable energies or a 'state of understanding' or
whatever else, I simply don't know.




It's like someone trying to explain combustion and selecting "fart
lighting" as the example.. No matter the argument, it just doesn't fit.

Based on what you've said above, you have absolutely no grounds to say
what you said; I'm more insulted you would dare condescend to me by
saying I should get my head out of my ass when you obviously have no
experience whatsoever with what I am talking about.
Actually, that comment was based on you listing me in the group that 'disavows' ki. You do a quick search and you'll see I'm on the other side of the argument.

In short you
simply have no frame of reference with which to conclusively state I'm
wrong in anything I've said.
Again, that's simply not so. I'm not talking about your knowledge, or lack thereof.. I'm talking about your presentation style, your subject matter selection, and your debate techniques. And frankly, in those areas I am absolutely qualified to comment.

P.
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