Re: MMA is just mindless brutality


I've never met a Kyokushin practitioner who was of this opinion.

Well, I tend to believe a show who documented some of the best
masters in Japan. From seeing thier training, I gained a little
more respect for thier art. (unlike watered down crap here)


On the other hand, I have been in both positions. Before and after..
and the After results were devestatingly effective. Before = make
artists laugh. After = Knock several skilled artists out with one
punch.

Yeah, but who have you fought worth a rat's arse? Nobody.

A name means little. Any joe off the street could possibly
be a guy who could easily KO a so called champ.

A name is made from such people.

The guy on 'Human Weapon' supposedly was a pro mma fighter...
yet compare his kicks for example.. to the no-name TKD guys
in that episode... and one can see very clearly how lacking
he is... as are many of the so called Pro's.

On yet another episode.. he couldnt even keep his ballance
on 5" diameter posts. Kept falling into water. I could go
on and on about all the weaknesses and lackings of his
abilities. How his name dont mean crap to me. His real
ability is laughable.

A name does not take away from the potency and skills of
high level artists whos intent is bent on crushing you.
Especially since I usually fought guys much bigger than myself.

If all you have fought are guys like Bill.. who are worthless
at kicking.. have poor ballance..etc.. then I dont expect
you to really understand what Im talking about. Go outside
your typical circles.. and meet the real talent. People who
devote more time and actually perfect thier techniques. And
after you have took a REAL Kick from a REAL Expert.. then
get back to me.


Before = kick telephone pole once at 20% power and foot feels on fire
and broken.

Why were you doing this?

To stop an attacker, a technique WC uses is the stomp kick to
the knee. Such a kick can break the knee, shin, etc. But to
do so, one must have the power, speed, and toughness in your
own body structure.

If you kick a solid object, such as a knee.. or a concrete wall..
your foot may sting and hurt. You cant fully realize your true
full potential because of that pain, and because your skin, muscles,
tissue, and bones are not up to being able to accept all that force.

After doing so for a certain time.. you not only strengthen yourself
internally.. but also, you learn to channel all of your body mass into
the kicks. So instead of only using your leg power.. you are using
your entire body.. which ends up making power beyond belief.

Since the targer does not absorb and move away.. one does not have
to wait for a bag to swing back. Get more training in less time.
More forces transfered. Better ability to practice repeated speed hits.
and much more.

After = kick at 100% for 30 minutes and foot only slightly numb for
few moments. Kick guys knee at 10% and send him down in tears for
6min. almost breaking it.

Fight someone with a clue = bad day for Steve.


Ive fought people that would bury you man. Which is why I now know
what I do know now.

One such guy I fought trained 7 different styles. Even learned under
a big name JKD guy in CA. But unlike MMA thats seen on tv, this guy
actually perfected everything he learned. Youd be lucky to get a sinlge
hit on him. And that was a brutal day for me. Which again, is why I
know much better than you.


If i use your head for a target, or I use a wall mounted bag
filled with sand or metal BBs... which one will yeild better results?

You ever have a bag hit you back? Look, bag work is fine, but you have
to put it in its context.

Sparring is meant for targeting. But one can also learn to
target with small stationary objects at multiple distances
and heights. Developing the ability to be accurate at any
distance and at full speed.

A person hitting back is a differnt skill altogether. That
falls under block/redierection training.


A) your head isnt going to hold up to 500 punches a day.

Yeah, but tell me how you're going to do that when I've bobbing,
weaving and hitting back.

You really dont get it. You are used to snail slow punches,
and those punches thrown from great distances. In WC, we wont
throw a punch untill that person is less than 2.5ft away. We also
throw them straight mostly.. which means they are faster, and cant
be read in advance. These make it nearly impossible to avoid.

If you try to bob, im already targeting your head with my 2nd fist
on an intercept course as you are bobing. If somehow you could manage
to narrowly avoid that 2nd one.. the 3rd is right there. I can throw
2 or 3 punches a second and still maintain KO power with ease.

And finally, you assume that I am going to do that stupid
one hit wonder game. Where as I wait for some miricle opening that
you left wide.. and I use timing to blast in. WRONG. If I were
fighting you, I would break down your defenses systematically before
any strike was thrown. It could be a counter to your strike, or a
combination/trap based entry. All I need is to make a tiny gap,
and a split second worth of time.

Targetting is actually the easiest part. Its the block/redirects
and the destruction of the others defenses that takes the real
skill.

Your head does not move very fast. Nor does your body. But
your hands CAN move very fast. And cutting the angles off,
and temp traps can be a challenge. Especailly since you must
pass kick range first.

B) Your not going to be awake after the first hit.

You're not going to be able to do it.

Thats very cocky. hehe There has not been one artist that I could
not land a hit on. This includes instructors.

C) Metal BBs when struck right, will be harder than your skull.

So's a bowling ball.

The bbs have enough give that they at least form well against the
first. A ball shape does not, and it has no absorbtion at all. That
would be more likely to damage the fist, merely because of the shape.
If you wrapped it in leather it might be more realistic to a head
hit.. but, it still wont be as good and safe as the bbs.

Believe it or not, the skin, hair, and muscles on the head provide
a good deal of absorbtion. But also, the head usually snaps
back when hit.. as the persons neck flexes.

But what I was really talking about is Fa Jing. The BBS when hit
slowly will simply move away from the forces. Yet when hit very swift,
and tightening the entire body mass into it.. they have no time to
move and sort of create a solid wall. Its the same way water
reacts... and why you may be able to fall 40ft into it without
harm... yet fall 120ft into it.. and you may break your bones.

When hitting the head.. I do not try to hit 1+ ft through it. I merely
transfer all the energy from my entire body into the persons head. The
force is differnt. Its a vibrational effect, rather than a push effect.


10% bag striking, the rest, sparring.

Says you? The GURU of all striking power? Very laughable.

Striking power, accuracy, and speed are completely different from
sparring training. If you understood that, maybe your stikes would
have some heat to them.

And as I said, training on a heavy bad is Crap. Especially if
you are wearing padded gloves. Its completely unrealistic to how
a real body reacts and feels when hit.


If you are trying to say that you need sparring to be able to
get a hit.. then to a certian extent yes. BUT, you mess up the
realities of training.

Development of power is pretty much a finite thing. Once you have
attained it.. you pretty much reach a peak output level. After that,
you only have to maintain it very lightly.

However, block/redirects/traps..etc.. are things that require much
more work and need constant feedback to be maintained to a high
level.

Its not really a percentage. Its a choice on how good you want
your tools to be. You make the choice weather you want to walk
into a battle with a butterknife... or a razor sharp Katana.


A Target made of similar consistency will yeild the same results,
and I will not need to injure partners brain to do it.

And you'll be deluded into believing you can fight.


Anyone with half a brain would know that punching accuracy and power
alone do not equate to the best fighter. I never said.

Yet, on the other hand, if you have poor accuracy and poor power,
your fighting is going to be pretty sad. Especailly if you are say..
a woman who is being attacked in a parking lot. If you have poor power,
no matter how skilled you are, you may end up in a ditch because all
your efforts were not enough to put the guy out. Yet, if you have
the power.. you may get that one shot in, and KO him, or injure him to
the point where he lets you loose to escape.


Go to a boxing gym. Really.

Try hitting some wall mounted sandbags. Then you tell me the
difference between that and a heavy bad. Ill wait.

Unlike you, I have both... and Ive trained both. In both WC
and Boxing style for each.


You could always spar, ya know.

I sparred plenty. But I dont tend to unleash anywhere near
full power on humans. I prefer not to send my opps to the
hospial or grave.


And if you are talking training of targeting.. that can be done
without useing anwhere near full power. Most of it is in proper
distancing.

And best practiced against a live opponent.

Guess you didnt read again. Sigh. (the above statment was in
reference to sparring with a person.. and not needing lot
of power)



Not in training, no.

I never mentioned training. So is it different in the ring then?
Ahh wait, you already said no.. but then again.. why are you mentioning
training? Are you really sure..?


Simply not true. You have to be careful extrapolating your own
experiences to generalities about others.


Dude, Ive been all over the martail arts map. Wherever I go,
I have ran into artists that get pissed, and try to hurt you
on purpose. Not only that, but there are countless stories
here, as well as from others that I can recite which also
prove my points. If you have not experienced them, then I say
you have had a very tame and limited experience.



Yeah, cos for the very most part, WT is useless.

My so called useless WC was able to keep me from getting hit by
blackbelts... and KO several high level artists. The art is only as
good as the practioner, who makes sure its perfected.


If they are any everyday Joe martial artist? Just a simple
stubborn
guy who thinks they know everything? (And doesnt mind rubbing it in
your face about how your stuff wont work.. claiming 'BS'.)

In what I do and have done, we have every opportunity to inflict very
severe damage on each other....which we don't by mutual agreement. But
on the str33t, you do whatever you have to do.


Ive already heard of many BJJ guys getting some wicked injuries
because another punk was pissed and wanted to be an ass.

Ive also seen a UFC episode where a gracie rolled around with a
guy for like 20min.. and AFTER he finally won the round by
the guy tapping.. he went ahead and INTENTIONALLY BROKE THE GUYS
ARM! Why? Because his pride was hurt. He was embarrased that it
took so long to break the guy.

People dont always stick to that Mutual agreement.


*** happens in prize-fighting...arms, legs and jaws get broken.

2) If you lose because you let him pass without serious damages:
a) will you regret that the rest your life?
b) will it effect your life tremendously?
c) will you cry and be in pain for 40yrs internally? :P

You've done any of the stuff you talk about, have you?


As Ive said in the past, I had almost broken a stubborn artists
knee. He didnt respect my art, and always tackled me because he
was much stronger and bigger. Yet one day I had enough of
letting him feel like he had won. In reality, he never would have
gotten past my leg break, nor survived my punch. And I put him down
in 1sec flat to prove it that day. After that, I realized it was
not worth doing that to another, even if it ment swallowing my pride
and losing.

A year or so later.. a guy jumped out of his car, and wanted to
fight me. I had a choice to make. I could have easily crippled
him. Instead, I chose to talk him down. I feel good about that
choice... but it was not an easy one at that time.

The concept here is a sence of morality.
What the right thing to do is.


WTF are you talking about? *You're* the guy with the 'deadly'
techniques...you tell *me*.

look, the argument was about brutality. Im simply making it
clear that man can be brutal to each other in the arts. That
you people often accept it when 2 adults do it.. but if it
were children.. people would be in an uproar.

IE: Watching your child ground pound the other, till theres blood
everywhere.


Real training carries risks. If you can't accept those risks, don't do
it.

Again, I accepted that. Im simply arguing the case of brutality.


Do you really need to bloody a fellow fighter up over a
meaningless
victory?

It's just in the way of things. It's not meaningless if you're
trying to win a boxing world title for instance.


A world title is just that. A title. Its meaning is very very
limited. Its especially pale in comparison to taking a persons
life over it. "Wow - I won a belt, and I took away a kids fathers
brains too... and I dont feel bad at all" :P

Read above.

Which means I won the argument. Its brutal.


Yes: because why? Because that is what the teachers have told you
to do? Because letting them go would result in them getting a
2nd chance to win?

Getting choked out just happens. They recover and have a go at
returning the favour. Where's the problem?


Possible loss of brain power thru lack of oxegen. Possible that person
does has complications and does not revive. Possible that repeated
injures cause permanent neck/spine damages.. or nasty nerve damages..etc.


The reality here is that this behavior should not be endorsed nor
excepted as part of the training system. If teachers pressed the
issues.. and taught 'Family' and good conciousness, instead of
'enemy-competition' then the enviornment would be much more safe,
friendly, and more productive.

Few go out with the intention of causing damage to their training
partners, if for no other reason than someone more skilled than them
might do the same.


Dude, UFC promotes 2 guys bashing each other repeatedly as blood
is flying everywhere. That is violence promoted by the very rules.
Of course they go out there with the intent to hurt the other
guy. Heck, they each say it in all the interviews. "Im gona hurt
that guy'. 'I love to hurt others'..etc.


The idea is not just about numbers.

Then why quote them?


Why do you rip every sentence down? The answer is already in the
next sentences. You only make yourself look like a fool to do that,
as well as making it much harder to form replies. Its also wastes
your own time typing out the same crap 2 or more times in different
ways.


Its about responsibility.
Its about what is worth more... its about the topic.. Brutality.

Brutality where? Where you train? Not required. On the str33t? Yeah,
for sure.

The TOPIC was basically: 'Is MMA on TV, mindless and brutal?'
Did you even READ the first Post?

The answer is yeah, Sure it is. Its also brutal outside the ring.
Does it have to be? not at all. Is it sometimes? Sure.



But, I dont go so far as to really
hurt anyone anymore. Ill let a guy take me to the ground now,
instead of targeting his knee.

And what will you do then? (leaving aside the nonsense of 'letting'
him take you to the ground).

Sometimes I resist. Most times I let them submit.


The idea here again.. is that Fighting 'is' Brutal. Nothing more,
nothing less.

Then why are you so against brutality?


Did I say that? I merly was arguing that it was brutal.
Not so much that I was against it.


My personal feeling is that I try to be moral in the way
in which I carry my own actions. Yet, I cant deny that there
will always be some brutality unleashed. Its part of the game
that is Martial Arts.

.

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