Re: OT - Eurarbia

Herbert Cannon schreef:

">
In Belgium illegal immigrants cannot get welfare, they can get absic
non-financial support (medical & housing)

That would be considered welfare.

but they do not get some kind
of "salary". They are also not allowed to work.

But do they?

Yes, I guess, else they would starve to death as they do not get money
through other channels. But I suspect that some work more in
unregistered areas such as prostitution and organised crime.

Immigrants that have been allowed (frex if they can show that they are
being prosecuted in their country of origin) do get welfare, and
unfortunately the welfare amount is too close to the amount one can
make by working at some assembly line in a factory.

That is kind of startling. Where is the encouragement to work?

Personal pride I guess. I know few Belgians that are not proud of our
social system. Personally i find the unemployment fees to high, and the
control (for weeding out the abusers of the system) way too low.
However I don't think we have significantly more unemployment then
other EU nations.

For your reference I think a single guy, no family or other people
depending on him could get aroung 800 ?/month. This will not allow
you any kind of luxuries (life is more expensive here then it is in the
US). The minimum wage, for any kind of fulltime job, would be around
1000 ?.

Someone like an engineer (but w/o management responsability) would make
several times the minimu salary, let's say from 3k? to 4k/mth. A
labourer working in shifts at an assembly line should be able to get
around 2,5k? gross per month.

So there is a strong financial motivator for anybody that has a chance
of making more then minimum salary.

There is
insufficient control, which even more diminishes the willingness of
some people to get off their ass and find a job.

Well that is not unique to Belgium I assure you.

mindset and tells you where loyalty lies. The article did make a point
of
telling you more people attend Mosques in Europe than attend church.. I
have
read ( " America Against the World") that only 5% of Europeans attend
church
and that 50% no longer believe in God ( as opposed to 90% in Amreica).
I
would like to have seen the article adress these points better.

is that germane to the article?

I sort of think so. It was about Europe and their immigrants. I would
think
it is important to know the background and mindset of the immigrants.
Gives
you an idea of how hard it is to assmilate them. Did they go to Europe to
become European or did they go there to make Europe part of Islam? The
first
waves left because their own governments failed them; and they are pretty
much European in outlook. This does not appear to be true for their
offspring and the new waves coming in.

Most of the problems with immigrants in Belgium are due to 2nd or 3rd
generation immigrants from arab descent.

I have read this is true for some other European countries also.

The 1st gen immigrants came here to work. And they did the hard and
dirty labour that the others didn't want to do.

The 2nd and 3rd gen are liek a lot of minorities in a lot of countries
I guess. Some have adapted and integrated. Others haven't; these are
unemployed, have no colledge degrees and little future, and are
consequently vulnerable to extremist ideologies.

The immigration procedures at the moment are much more strict. People
coming from marocco or algeria for example cannot prove at all that
they are being prosecuted in their country of origin (except when they
are not muslims off course).

Interesting.

Actually I have met political refugees from Turkey who were allowed
into belgium on the basis of being christians and therefore prosecuted
in their own country. And I have personally witnessed on several
occasions, while travelling to turkey, damages to peoples houses, and
the words catholic written on those houses in 1m high letters.

Background and mindset is central to the immigration issue.
I know there is a problem with illegal immigrants from North Africa
trying
to get into Europe via the Islands ( Canary?) and then to Spain

Spain is mighty close to north africa. All you need is a boat and
balls.

Yup kind of like people floating out of Cuba. Miami is now called Little
Havana

I was once in Miami, only 1h out of the airport I managed to get into a
discussion with 4 hispanics (all dressed in blue with blue bandanas).
But they seemed to like me as I was not an american.

The article
also pointed out that no one really knows how many immigrants are in
Europe.
It failed to mention the fact that the European birth rate has fallen
below
the replacement rate now making Europe dependent on its immigrants to
keep
its economies going; or did I miss that.

that was mentioned, i believe- also comes iup in regard to japan,
russia has a falling pop. rate, but they are so hostile to immigrants
and so poor that the immigrants do go there.

I am not familiar with Japan's problem. Where do their immigrants come
from - Korea? I understand, at one time, Japan was pretty racist. Have no
idea it they still are.

There's a LOT of brazilians in japan.

Now that is strange.

Russia is a shithole of a country. The Journal of Foreign Affairs has an
article on them in this issue.

Yes, it is. It's just waiting until a new kind of dictatorship rises
there.

I think they may have one already. From what I understand from some friends
of mine that have been there is that organized crime runs the country.

And that organised crime is spreading to the rest of the world. It's
not uncommon for a russian family, all dressed in fur coats and driving
a merc, to come to social offices to request wellfare.

they made some ve It just seemed to sidestep too many
major issues.
I did enjoy the article and I am glad a major magazine decided to take
the
issue up on its cover. It shows at least that someone is awake.
Otherwise, I
expected a lot more. That is it in a nutshell.


I like the part about the turks in germany - they noted how one or two
generations ago, the Turks assimlited quite well, but the new waves
aren't doing that at all, basically b/c they are increasing
marginalized into an economic subclass, and Germany's economy isn't
exactly sparkling- hence added tension.

I understand the Turkey is becoming kind of radicalized also. That is a
shame. When Ataturk kicked the Imans out of government he brought them a
long way to modernization. If Turkey is admitted to the EU then it will
have
the largest, best equipped army in Europe. Sometime ago I read two
pretty
fair books on Turkey " Turkey Today" and " Between Two Worlds." The
Economist did a big article on them some time ago.

Turkey has no business in the EU. The problem the EU already has today
is that it is too fragmented. They cannot even come up with one
constitution, or one army, or even one opinion on things like the war
in iraq. The EU has to solve there internal issues first before even
considering letting other countries enter.

I will have to leave that to you. I have no particular knowledge of Turkey
and the EU. I think Turkey may have some internal issues to solve also. They
were rather brutal to their Kurdish population.

On top of that Turkey is still refusing to recognise one of the EU
member states.

Which one??

Cyprus; the Turks still claim that the greek part is theirs to. It is
one of the biggest roadblocks in them joining the EU. It's like the
palestinians refusing to recognise israel (although luckily a lot les
violent).

Where did you read that Turkey has a better and bigger army then
Germany, or the UK, or France?

Not the UK but other European armies. I cannot remember where I read that.. I
wish I could. It sort of jumped out at me when I read it and stuck with me.
Ataturk set the Trukish army up as the Guardian of the people. It was
supposed to step in and get rid of corrupt politicians whenever necessary
( " Between Two Worlds"). How well it does is another story. So I can see
where it can command a pretty piece of the Turkish govt's money

If that was true wouldn't they have to
spend more money on their defense budget? The UK alone spends around 7
times more on defense then Turkey. Italy, Spain, Holland, all spend
more then Turkey.
Hell even Belgium, much much smaller then Turkey and
with a very small army, spends about 40% of what Turkey spends.

There was a big article in the Wall Street Journal about European armies
being five years out of date in equipment and training etc. It mentioned the
Belgium armies average age was 40 as compared to the US army average age at
28. But dont get your underwear in a bunch, before WW II the American Army
was a pitiful thing ranking somewhere behind the Romanian army.

The belgian army is almost completely focused on peacekeeping and human
aid activities. It doesn't have the intention of invading another
country or nation. If you want to drop aid packages you're better off
with a C130 then with a JSF. A few years ago every guys still had to go
to the army for 1.5/2 yrs, they have stopped doing this and as a result
the avg age has increased a lot.

Compared to the US I think all European armies are behind in technology
(and manpower). I don't think belgium as such really needs an army
(except for peacekeeping etc) but there needs to be a strong EU army
(NATO is clearly not doing what they are supposed to do).

My congratulations to the Belgian army. When they were pulled out of Rwanda
by the UN bureaucrats, before the slaughter, they shredded their blue berets
they were so disgusted. Had they remained, I believe they would have
prevented the slaughter. But then troops have always displayed more
integrity than bureaucrats.

The UN (and NATO) somehow do not really seem to care about africa and
the different ongoing genocides. Not only are they always too lats, but
the going gets though they just quit.

Did you ever see the movie Rwanda btw? They hotel owner (that rescues
the people) is actually working in brussels as as taxi driver.

Dimitri

.