Re: And yet more shiao jiao clips

On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 08:06:06 -0600, "Mike Sigman"
<mikesigman@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"Badger North" <young_forest@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:2f7g82l2hd3abuk0652uf79hj0mjca92f1@xxxxxxxxxx
On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 05:59:39 GMT, Charlie <judoman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

So how does all those datapoints fit in with the speculation that Kano
secretly admired & imitated SJ, and hid its influence from everyone?
Hey, I'm all for a good conspiracy theory, but this one just isn't
that compelling to me. About SJ/Chinese having influence on jujutsu
development over the course of centuries, well I'm quite open to that.
But thats a far different claim than saying SJ was a direct influence
on Judo, which is a recent & well documented art.

Total agreement. Despite whatever historical rewrites the Japanese
have done, the development of judo seems pretty straightforward. To
parachute Chinese SJ into it is a stretch.

Again, Charlie is now putting words in my mouth. Secondly, "parachuting
Chinese SJ into Judo" is sort of a given when you look at the Japanese
records... which carry more weight than any poster on RMA and which carry
more weight than any post-Kokugaku writings.

Heh, but *Judo* is post-Kokugaku! Despite this, Kano himself would
seem to NOT have the Japanese antipathy towards China, seeing as he
set up & taught a school for Chinese students in Japan, seeing as he
studied Chinese Literature etc. So why would he _not_ record in his
private diaries, writings, etc the Chinese influence that helped him
create his art, if in fact that is what happened, as you sometimes
propose?! Its far easier to believe that he created Judo just as he
said -- simply, it was mainly a result of insights born of his
intensive immersion & training in several Jujutsu ryu.

The interesting thing to notice about the Judo lowbreeds arguments last time was that all the
Japanese records were wrong while all the post-Kokugaku writings, including
"histories" by non-credible historians, were right, even though the Japanese
antipathy toward China since the 1800's is a given. Doesn't that sort of
embarrass anyone? It's absurd.

Again, you see the problem? Anything to do with Judo (born 1882) is
_necessarily_ going to be 'post-Kokugaku.' You want talk about prior
Japanese records and ancient jujutsu? Fine, but that's something else
than Judo.

It's sort of like these hyper-secret "Koryu" which are the ancient
reservoirs of purely Japanese martial arts.... and then you find out that
the "secret teachings" of the Koryu all contain standard Chinese Yin-Yang
cosmology explanations, drawings, diagrams, and they're written in Chinese
alphabets... but they're "pure Japanese arts". And of course, the Japan
defenders swiftly give some absurd rationalization.

Look, I don't know where these 'anti-Chinese Japan defenders' you're
talking about are. I do know that Ellis recently said this, in
_contradicton_ to your claim of the idea of 'koryu as reservoirs of
purely Japanese ma' (a strawman?).

"Chinese martial arts texts were passed around like Maxims in a junior
high - the treatises in these texts were incorporated, either
correctly or incorrectly in a lot of koryu. This is common knowledge
and has been throughout koryu history - I've never heard any Japanese
practitioner deny the influence of Chinese Taoism, Neo-Confucianism
and Buddhism on Japanese traditional arts. "

When the *principles* of an art derive from China, it's a Chinese-derived art.

The contribution you've seemed to propose Gempin introduced was that
of special ki-skills, yes? (Because as you've already said, the
techniques of jujutsu/SJ were already well known by Jap arts.)

Ellis goes on to say that "... Essentially, the sophisticated side -
everything from breathing to body strengthening to psychological and
spiritual training had its roots in China."

Well, both your ki-skills and Ellis' other aspects are _not_
principles that Judo has heavily invested in. Even back in the early
days, Harrison noted only a few rare and outstanding men had skills in
those areas, which they didn't get at the Kodokan. Someone else made
the point that Takeda Sokaku derided Judo for _not_ fixating on wonder
ki-skills. You'd agree with all that , yes?

Well then, it looks like the key principles of the art isn't directly
Chinese derived -- Judo isn't founded on ki-skills from Gempin, or
'sophisticated body conditioning & meditations' from kungfu/taoism
etc. (for that matter, how much of that stuff could Kano have known
at only 21years age??) You've made several derogetory comments about
that lack in Judo, but I think that's just showing a bias of your
perspective -- most of us think its great that Judo is instead rooted
in undisputed practicality.

If you want to talk about Judo connections to China, still seems to me
that its got to be diffuse, and over the course of centuries, with the
broader influence on background Jujutsu ryu.

Charlie
.

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  • Re: And yet more shiao jiao clips
    ... and hid its influence from everyone? ... the development of judo seems pretty straightforward. ... Chinese SJ into Judo" is sort of a given when you look at the Japanese ... You could argue that Kano never heard of shuai jiao (which is ...
    (rec.martial-arts)