Re: The back-kick

On 17 Nov 2005 11:07:33 -0800, "Shuurai" <Shuurai11@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

>> >It's not significantly faster by any stretch of the imagination.
>> >You're more likely to miss by not looking at the target than because
>> >your kick was that fraction of a second slower...
>> >
>>
>> a fraction of a second is a long time in a fight, no?
>
>Sure... but such a minimal increase in speed at the expense of vision
>isn't a good trade.

I explained later, you have all the vision you need.

>
>> >> Granted, it is not usually a good idea to not look at your target, but back kicks are
>> >> used close in, usually when someone is charging you.
>> >
>> >Not looking at your target is generally a terrible idea, and the only
>> >situation in which a blind back-kick is a good idea versus a
>> >close-range opponent charging from behind is in a TKD match. If that's
>> >all you're interested in doing, no problem. But if you want to learn
>> >how to fight, it's something to avoid.
>>
>> Don't know why you think it is blind. Picture a ballerina, like
>> Strider.
>
>Strider has already said that he only dresses like that on halloween,
>and we have no reason to believe otherwise.

he does seem to be enthusiastically partaking in a lovely dance
program though.

>
>> How do they spin? Ever watch their eyes? What moves first?
>> What moves last? Their body can be almost completely rotated and
>> their eyes haven't left their focus point.
>
>Big difference, though... a ballerina is simply trying to turn
>without falling down, and they don't have people attacking them while
>they're doing it. They don't have to worry about kicking a target that
>might be moving towards them, away, or to either side - much less one
>that's trying to hit them first or knock them down.

There's a time and place for everything. Including ballerinas.

always loved those flexible girls....

>
>> In a MA turning kick your hips move first. You have eye contact on your opponent.
>> They are charging. They expect you to punch or stick then with a front snap.
>
>Wrong. This applies to YOU because you're following a set of rules.
>This isn't a rip or anything, it's just the way it is. When I have
>someone charging me, they are as likely coming in for a takedown as
>trying to hit me. They're not confined to punching and kicking - and
>they're not being encouraged to kick to satisfy a scoring system.

There is more versatility than you seem to understand. There are
hundreds of techniques for hundreds of scenarios. If the guy is
standing up and opens up, you kick him. If he goes low for the shoot
you do something else. Lots of full contact fighters have used turn
backs effectively in all kinds of events, including mma. The
possibility of alternate scenarios doesn't change the effectiveness of
any given technique for varying scenarios as long as it's the right
application.

>
>Trying to stop someone who's charging in to kick you is relatively easy
>- you hit them.

Sure. Or you kick him.

> Trying to stop someone who's charging in for a
>takedown is much different - you aren't likely to do it with a punch or
>a snap-kick. They aren't likely to *stop* at your punch or snap-kick.
>Turning your back on them - even worse.

Sure. I wouldn't consider using a turn back on a guy going in for the
shoot. That would be just plain dumb now wouldn't it? Doesn't mean
there isn't a time and place for the technique. Lots have
demonstrated as such.

>
>> Instead you quickly initiate your hip rotation with your lateral
>> obliques. Your hips are already half way through their rotation and
>> your shoulders haven't moved yet. You still have eye contact. You
>> know exactly where they are as your shoulders begin following your
>> hips. You still have eye contact. Your foot is already chambered.
>> As you begin to kick back you are free to face away from them because
>> you know exactly where they are and they do not have time to move. As
>> I mentioned to the OP in another post, if you really want to look,
>> don't attempt to rotate your head laterally and look first. It is way
>> too slow and causes you to over rotate your body and you lose optimal
>> position for the back kick. Look down at your shoulder. You can see
>> the guy in your peripheral vision.
>
>Again, this is dependant on the rules you are playing by. When your
>opponent is as likely to tackle you are punch or kick you, you simply
>*don't* know where he is in relation to your kick. If he's any good at
>all, he's going to come in very, very fast or not at all. He could be
>coming in high or low - or not at all.

Sure. Watch and take your pick as to how you defend. OK. Fair nuff.

>
>> >> You pretty much know where they are.
>> >
>> >But not what they are doing.
>>
>> Typically a turning back is used against someone charging you. Or as a
>> followup to a lead in kick if you have your opponent moving back. You
>> know exactly what they are doing. It is a very, very fast kick when
>> executed properly.
>
>YOU know exactly what they're doing because what they're doing is
>confined to a rather narrow set of rules. Those of us who aren't
>playing at TKD don't have that luxury. The OP was asking to compare
>his kick to other styles, so we might as well go all the way with it
>and discuss how it'll work in general.

<sigh> whatever. Now you're just getting to be a dip*** again.

the kick is clearly performed pretty much the same in all styles.
Physics is physics. There's only just so many ways you can hit
someone.

>
>> >> The kick can be executed fast enough someone does not have time to dodge,
>> >> and they are damned hard to see coming.
>> >
>> >The kick can be executed just as fast - and more accurately - if you
>> >look first.
>>
>> Please describe exactly what will happen to your upper body if you
>> attempt to look first. And you also just provided your opponent with
>> a HUGE telegraph by turning your head first.
>
>Even if we assume a TKD match for the sake of argument, that kick is
>the standard in the two scenarios you described. There isn't a TKD
>player out there who doesn't know that a back kick will be likely.

Will you forget TKD for once asswipe? Can't you analyse the
physiology or strategy of a technique without getting on your anti TKD
rants?

>
>In a non-TKD setting, I'll take the telegraph, the fraction of a second
>reduction in speed, and whatever else for the ability to see my target.
> And that's only if the better option of turning around and facing him
>isn't available.

Anything but admit I ass fucked you on the physiology of kicking
again.

Man, why do I feel like a cigarette?

>
>> It should be the last
>> thing to move. You try to back kick an experienced ring fighter by
>> turning your head first they will be ready to catch that leg that you
>> are about to stick out for them to grab.
>
>I rarely try to back kick anyone - but I look when I do, and hit most
>of the time.

I move my hips first, while I'm still looking at him. I hit most of
the time too.

>
>> >> If you try to bring your head around you can cause over rotation of
>> >> your body and you miss the optimal position for the back kick.
>> >
>> >If you look first you can adjust the rotation of your body accordingly,
>> >and hit accurately with just as much power.
>>
>> No, you are incorrect. You end up turning your body more into a side
>> kick position which will not have the same speed and power as a
>> turning back.
>
>It'll be more accurate, more likely to land, and every bit as powerful.
>
>> >> If you miss you have the spinning backfist or elbow.
>> >
>> >As long as you're playing at TKD tag sparring, sure.
>>
>> Wow. Really? Never seen any full contact with spinning elbows and
>> backfists?
>
>Sure - but assuming that you're gonna have time to throw one after
>missing with your back kick is assuming a situation where the opponent
>hasn't planted you into the mat by that point.

Always have a plan B in mind. Always. You never know how it's going
to turn out.

unless you want to do some outcome prediction. . . .

oh maybe next time....

>
>> You always have to resort to the TKD slams, don't you?
>
>It's not about slamming TKD - those are the rules of the game. Those
>rules are WHY what you're describing works within that particular game.

I am describing the best way to perform a turning back kick, and the
reasoning why you don't need or want to turn your head first to look.
The physics of the kick is faster and more efficient, and more of a
surprize if you don't move your head first.

>
>
>> >> And essential to the kick is to not try to turn your body all the way around
>> >> or turn your foot over horizontally. Kick with your heel, toes down and back
>> >> towards you. You should not be ending up in side kick position.
>> >
>> >Okay.
>> >
>> >> The only part I disagree with is you don't ever want to lock your
>> >> support knee.
>> >
>> >The only really good advice in your post.
>> >
>> >> That and you're wasting your time reading Black Belt mag.
>> >
>> >Yet, in this case Black Belt was more correct than you were.
>>
>> You love to insult me and Taekwondo,
>
>Telling you that you're wrong isn't an insult. Saying that I disagree
>with the teachings of TKD isn't an insult either. You really need to
>stop taking these things so personally.

You need to quit obsessing on thinking that everything must be done
within some imaginary confines you think exist with TKD and everything
is different in the rest of the world.

>
>> but clearly I am pretty much the only one who has a mastery of the
>> physics of kicking properly.
>
>You may or may not have some degree of mastery in terms of TKD kicking,
>but that's really not the point. The point is there is more than just
>"proper physics" that goes into usable technique.

Yes, of course. I never said otherwise. I was merely explaining why
someone would condone not looking in the manner you think everyone
must.

>
>> Of course now I know from past experience the conversation will
>> degrade to grade school level name calling.
>
>Oh, come on... I'm sure we can maintain at least highschool level name
>calling.
>
>> Rather, it would be
>> freshing to see a contrasting detailed analysis of how your body will
>> move when initiating and executing a turning back kick if you care to
>> try.
>
>The real issue at hand is the tactical aspects of the kick. In a real
>fight without constraints, a blind kick isn't the best idea.

<sigh> damn. Still the slow learner. Not a blind kick, remember?

> The
>physics are important, but better to start with a tactically sound kick
>and refine the physics from there, rather than trying to force your
>ideals of "proper" into a tactical situation.

Your distortion, soley. I never prioritized that way. I presumed the
assumption was that the kick was tactically sound as have many, and as
many a fighter has proven, in many, many cases it is a very tactically
sound kick. But even at the perfect moment, if not performed
correctly, it will be a failure. You must build the foundation before
you can build your dream home.

Hal

.

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