Re: I beleive this is important, please read.

On Wed, 8 Jul 2009 17:35:21 -0500, "deowll" <deowll@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:


"Good Soldier Schweik" <decypher.signature@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:vr49551f2ilb1kf74c0qao8ahih6fbs549@xxxxxxxxxx
On Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:34:01 +1000, Chilla
<charlesanderson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

brianWE wrote:
I love it when Americans remind us that Oz was a penal colony.
I guess they don't realize that Oz was settled, in the first place, to
replace the penal settlements they lost in North America after the War
of
Independence, there.

Americans were compelled to import more African slaves to replace the
expendable, cheap labour.


My understanding was that the Brits were exploring and colonising the
buggery out of the planet.

Dirk Hartog discovered the west side of Oz (the Aboriginals obviously
discovered it first... meh), and it was literally described as a shit
hole, hell on Earth, pick your favorite insult.

The British were getting a tad screwed with the criminal population, so
a new punishment of transportation was prescribed, better than getting
imprisoned for baked goods theft ;-)

This punishment was abolished when people were committing crimes so that
they "could" be transported, rather than endure a life of extreme poverty.

I didn't correlate an American penal colony ceasing to be a reason for
colonising Oz.

As to slavery, I don't think anyone was really compelled to do it.

My favorite topic is when someone in the states starts rabbiting on
about how the European settlers treated the Aboriginals really badly.
The humanity, the humanity etc. etc. This is true, the Aboriginals were
treated badly, however Native Americans seem to have been treated pretty
badly also.

This does bring up a "knife related" question though.

Were the American indians a stone based culture before white settlement?
Meaning flint knives, stone axes, flint arrow heads etc.?



Regards Charles (I live in Sydney)

The American Indians were stone age and had only dogs for
transportation (well, yes the women too, of course) prior to the
arrival of the white men.

Horses were added to the Western Indian's menagerie after the Spanish
exploration and settlement of Mexico and central America. Probably the
earliest the Indians acquired horses was in the late 1500 - early
1600's. Some tribes, notably the Navaho and Apache, from the mountains
of the S.W. never became known for their use of horses unlike the
plains Indians.

The Indians being intelligent, albeit primitive, recognized that iron
tools and weapons were BETTER and the earliest records showed that
edged tools and weapons were highly sought after trade goods.




cheers,

Schweik
(goodsoldierschweikatgmaildotcom)

Not completelty right. There was some use of native copper from around the
Great Lakes that started back in the very early days as in maybe 9,000 year
ago but no evidence for smelting in what became the U.S.

At least one tride in what is now north western Mexico seems to have been in
the bronze age. This may have been one reason the Aztec did not conquer
them.

The Inca were skilled workers of metal but I'm not sure if they were
smelting copper or not. They did some nice work with silver and gold. At the
least they were working copper.

There is also some evidence for the presence of iron among the inut/Eskimo
in the east. Most likely a metorite was the source. Perry snitched a large
iron metorite that they were using as a source of iron and it is a musem the
last I heard.

In Alaska and along the west coast there may have been other sources of
iron. The locals were doing some fancy copper work and drifting wrecks may
have brought iron.

Another option is trade. Direct trade isn't all that likely but the People
living along the Bering strait didn't consider it to be a barrier. You can
walk across in the winter and their boats could easily make the trip so
repeated trades of iron forged in Asia might have resulted in iron objects
being traded for some distance along the coast as in all the way down to
Northern California.

Potlatches may also have allowed valuable items to move long distances among
these people. That is the chiefs threw huge parties for the other chiefs and
gave their guests valuable gifts to gain status. Any failure to be able to
reply in kind cost the person given a gift a lot of face. These people had
large dugout canoes they used to hunt sea mammals with including whales and
they could travel large distances.

It is also claimed that people actually moved to the villages that could
throw the biggest parties and give away the most wealth so these events did
have a selfish side to them. Everybody knew exactly who owed whom what.

I'm starting to ramble. Time to shut up.

Not completelty right. There was some use of native copper from around the
Great Lakes that started back in the very early days as in maybe 9,000 year
ago but no evidence for smelting in what became the U.S.

At least one tride in what is now north western Mexico seems to have been in
the bronze age. This may have been one reason the Aztec did not conquer
them.

The Inca were skilled workers of metal but I'm not sure if they were
smelting copper or not. They did some nice work with silver and gold. At the
least they were working copper.

There is also some evidence for the presence of iron among the inut/Eskimo
in the east. Most likely a metorite was the source. Perry snitched a large
iron metorite that they were using as a source of iron and it is a musem the
last I heard.

In Alaska and along the west coast there may have been other sources of
iron. The locals were doing some fancy copper work and drifting wrecks may
have brought iron.

Another option is trade. Direct trade isn't all that likely but the People
living along the Bering strait didn't consider it to be a barrier. You can
walk across in the winter and their boats could easily make the trip so
repeated trades of iron forged in Asia might have resulted in iron objects
being traded for some distance along the coast as in all the way down to
Northern California.

Potlatches may also have allowed valuable items to move long distances among
these people. That is the chiefs threw huge parties for the other chiefs and
gave their guests valuable gifts to gain status. Any failure to be able to
reply in kind cost the person given a gift a lot of face. These people had
large dugout canoes they used to hunt sea mammals with including whales and
they could travel large distances.

It is also claimed that people actually moved to the villages that could
throw the biggest parties and give away the most wealth so these events did
have a selfish side to them. Everybody knew exactly who owed whom what.

I'm starting to ramble. Time to shut up.

Not completelty right. There was some use of native copper from around the
Great Lakes that started back in the very early days as in maybe 9,000 year
ago but no evidence for smelting in what became the U.S.

At least one tride in what is now north western Mexico seems to have been in
the bronze age. This may have been one reason the Aztec did not conquer
them.

The Inca were skilled workers of metal but I'm not sure if they were
smelting copper or not. They did some nice work with silver and gold. At the
least they were working copper.

There is also some evidence for the presence of iron among the inut/Eskimo
in the east. Most likely a metorite was the source. Perry snitched a large
iron metorite that they were using as a source of iron and it is a musem the
last I heard.

In Alaska and along the west coast there may have been other sources of
iron. The locals were doing some fancy copper work and drifting wrecks may
have brought iron.

Another option is trade. Direct trade isn't all that likely but the People
living along the Bering strait didn't consider it to be a barrier. You can
walk across in the winter and their boats could easily make the trip so
repeated trades of iron forged in Asia might have resulted in iron objects
being traded for some distance along the coast as in all the way down to
Northern California.

Potlatches may also have allowed valuable items to move long distances among
these people. That is the chiefs threw huge parties for the other chiefs and
gave their guests valuable gifts to gain status. Any failure to be able to
reply in kind cost the person given a gift a lot of face. These people had
large dugout canoes they used to hunt sea mammals with including whales and
they could travel large distances.

It is also claimed that people actually moved to the villages that could
throw the biggest parties and give away the most wealth so these events did
have a selfish side to them. Everybody knew exactly who owed whom what.

I'm starting to ramble. Time to shut up.


Probably/possibly true however there is no evidence that metal was in
common use by any group of Indians (to use the old term) that came in
contact with the settlers in N. America. Quite the contrary in fact as
all records of first contacts mention that they used "stone" knives,
arrow heads, etc.

There was obvious extensive trade among the tribes or geographical
areas. Pipe stone, for example, seems to have been traded for quite
surprising distances.



cheers,

Schweik
(goodsoldierschweikatgmaildotcom)
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: I beleive this is important, please read.
    ... exploration and settlement of Mexico and central America. ... There was some use of native copper from around the Great Lakes that started back in the very early days as in maybe 9,000 year ago but no evidence for smelting in what became the U.S. ... There is also some evidence for the presence of iron among the inut/Eskimo in the east. ... Another option is trade. ...
    (rec.knives)
  • Re: I beleive this is important, please read.
    ... least they were working copper. ... There is also some evidence for the presence of iron among the inut/Eskimo ... Direct trade isn't all that likely but the People ... Potlatches may also have allowed valuable items to move long distances among ...
    (rec.knives)
  • Re: waxing leather
    ... Iron is a smelting process, then it has to be refined in the forge, so it was by far a more expensive process. ... You think copper and its ores are common? ... High grade hematite will still stick to a magnet and if they had a forge as in what they had at valley forge they could deal with it. ... Melt an ingot, add a little tin, and pour into a mould. ...
    (rec.knives)
  • Re: waxing leather
    ... Iron is a smelting process, then it has to be refined in the forge, so it was by far a more expensive process. ... You think copper and its ores are common? ... Copper ore is not common compared to iron ore. ... The Romans were an exception, the Romans had industry, and the smiths would buy iron rods that they would fashion. ...
    (rec.knives)