Re: Testing sharpness...

Frank Warner <warnerf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Beyond shaving sharpness? I don't think that's possible with
ordinary stones or hones. Straight razors are typically honed
on 4000-6000 grit water stones, then carefully stropped. They
aren't considered sharp until they can slice through a single
hair dangled from thumb and forefinger, and we're talking a
slow cut, not a cutting test slash. The razor's edge is so
acute it catches the edges of the microscopic cuticular scales
on the outside of the hair shaft and severes it cleanly
without drag.
Yeah that's what he's looking for, sharpness like that. :)
Kitchen knives don't _need_ to be that sharp. The best test
for a kitchen knife is to take a *** of newsprint and fold
it in half but don't crease the fold. Draw your knife through
the fold at an angle of 60? or so. If it cuts clean with no
draggng or tearing, it's sharp enough for any kitchen chore.
Yeah but, that's not the answer he's looking for, how do you get
that extra sharpness and how do you test for it?

The armhair test is, in my opinion, stupid, dangerous and a
poor indicator of sharpness. Whenever I see somebody try that
with one of my knives, I immediately demand they stop and put
the knife away.
-Frank
http://www.franksknives.com/
Your opinion stinks. :/

That's because everybody has one.

I was hoping for something better than that. :)

Reading your statement closer... what if the test isn't done in an
armchair but the "mid hair" test is instead done at the kitchen
table? ;) Does that make a difference? :)

I don't have an armchair. :/

One of the easiest tests for the extra sharpness he's looking
for is the "mid hair" cutting test. Without touching the blade
to the skin ...see which of the hairs on your arm or the back of
your hand, the blade will "catch" and cut in "mid hair".

You can perform the same test without involving your arm. The
armhair test is nothing more than showing off.

Huh? What if it's being done with -no one around- to watch, just
for your own information? Is it still just "showing off"? :/

It tells me more about the knifemaker than it does about the
knife.

Like what does it tell you, Frank? :)

Be specific. I bet you can even use "stupid ass hick" in your
discription somewhere if you try. :)

There are other, safer and more indicative tests of sharpness.
Chas posted two below in addition to the ones I mentioned. Those
are for razors and kitchen knives. There are several others for
hunters and fighters, including those used by the Knifemaker's
Guild and the American Bladesmith Society, none of which allow the
blade's edge to come close to human flesh.

Wow. :/ You make them sound like a bunch of squeemish sissys. :/

Hmmmm... gonna have to think about that one.
"squeemish-sissy-knife-knuts"

BTW, the test doesn't involve the skin it only involves the hair,
the blade never touches the skin, again, just the hair, in
"mid-hair".

Depending on the hair you grow. Mine is like peach fuzz on my arm
:/ so I use my arm. Most of my friends use the hair on the back of
the their thumb, you'll find the coarser the hair the easier it is
to get the blade to "catch it" and cut it. So at some point, you
are shown, or you find, that you need finer hair to improve your
sharpening ability. :)

You are a knifemaker and you haven't done this? :/

Almost all my friends are cowboys ('cause I tend to rub everybody
else the wrong way, believe it?;) without testing all along the edge
of their cattle working blades, while sharpening, they would be in a
sorry state. Why does that seem so stupid to you, Frank? :/
I have a lot of respect for cowboys but an idiot is still an idiot. You
put something that sharp close to your skin, you're begging for a cut.
Does that sound smart to you, Alvin?

Idiot?

Can you define that please? ;)

What would you call a knife salesman saying in his post, that's
etched in stone (SiOx and FeOx stone) a whole bunch of us here
(and me and my friends in particular) are stupid?

What would you call that stunt? ;)

Neither one of my grandma's talked as sissy sounding as you are,
about getting cut. You're giving me the woolies with this sissy
sounding stuff. If that was you're intention, you did a good
job. ;)

It's ok, "you got me, Frank :)" you can stop with the sissy sounding
stuff now. :) You win. :)

What about -my- test for a truely sharp and thin-edged knife? :)

I've showed it to several, one guy almost fainted, are you and your
Guilded-buddies going to faint reading it? ;) (you brought them up
as back up) (

The guy that almost fainted, he also couldn't climb poles, he was
too afraid, paid others to do that work for him so he could keep his
job, nothing wrong with that IMO, just that he let himself scare too
easy is all.

Slice-off, the top-half, of your finger prints.

Who on here's got a knife blade that can do that? ;)

Try it with a throw-away razor blade.

Try the mid-hair test with that razor blade too then you'll know
what extra sharp can really be. "a sharpness to shoot for :)"

Also, "cuts are temporary" a knifemaker, of all people, should
know that. Are your cuts permanent somehow? :/ Sorry if they
are. :/

OP (original poster), stainless steel is a bad steel to work with
trying to get the extra sharp edge you're looking for, skip over
that stuff for now.
Carbon steel is the way to go here.
Or a homemade blade from high speed steel.
A very acute edge angle is needed too, like a straight razor.
The easiest thing in the world to do, is to ruin the edge you're
trying to make while you're sharpening. Careful attention to the
slightest motions while the blade is in contact with the hone is
the key here.
Stropping for example. Don't do it like they show in the movies. ;)
Thom sent me a video of a professional knifemaker doing it "wrong"
even.
Of course the blade he was stropping wasn't his straight razor so
maybe he really does know better, but somehow I doubt it. :/
The blade needs to be rolled over on its back at the end of every
stroke. If you see the method as "wasting some stropping distance"
then you're prob'ly doing it right. ;)
One little slip-up at the end of the stroke where the edge's angle
to the strop isn't totally flat... you've at least partially ruined
the edge... just that easy. :/
And that's stropping on a piece of leather... see what I meant about
"being carefull while honing" now?
It's an easy straight forward job, if you don't screw it up as you
go. ;)
Really. That's all you need to know to make a knife "extra" sharp
and catch and cut hair, in mid hair.
OP, got anything besides stainless steel to work with?
Alvin in AZ
ps- another one is to fold about 5/16" of the edge of a phone book
page, leave that 5/16" standing straight up, 90 degrees, press
your blade straight down on the edge, if it cuts all the way to
the fold without crushing it, it's pretty stinkin sharp ;)
pps- more than an absolute sharpness test, tests like that and the
"mid hair" test are for you to compare and improve your methods
by :)

I agree with you about stropping. Almost everybody does it wrong. I
disagree about sharpness testing. And I think I'll let it rest there.
-Frank
http://www.franksknives.com/

"let it rest" that's fine, but what about the "stupid" part?
You still think me and my friends are stupid? ;)

We are, but you aren't going to get away with saying so.

This is a newsgroup, not a website forum, this is -anarchy!- :)
And I love it. :)

I don't care who you are, or who you think you are, the one thing
you're going to find out is, you aren't smarter than any given
hundred people. :)

Those that think they are smarter or better than others usually
don't last long on NGs. I set my dad up on a political newsgroup
and he didn't last a week, but was pissed off for months. :)

Heck, mention it today and he's still pissed, so I guess "years"
wouldn't be all that far from the truth. ;)

He figured all he had to do was type in his thoughts and he'd have
followers kneeling at his feet. LOL :)

"[alvin] You're worthless as tits on a boar hog :(" -Mom

Can we all, at least, agree on that? :)
If not that one, how about...

"[alvin] You're just being assinine :/" -Mom

Me in particular, I want to learn from you, Frank. :)
No kidding. :)

So far tho, all you've done is talk down to me and the OP.

If you insist on continuing to talk down to me in person, I can tell
you to take the first punch. All I can do here is pick on you until
you lighten-up or leave. But the thing for you to know is, I ain't
gonna take it.

What's it going to be, Frank? :)

It's really cool here on NG's tho. :)
It keeps you on your toes.

If you say something everyone agrees with you'll usually get
silence. Say something one person -somewhere in the English
speaking world- disagrees with and they'll jump on you with both
feet. :)

You'll soon realize that being careful what you say is important.

Ain't that a good thing?

You'll soon realize that some of your most charished ideas are
thought of as just plain ol' silly, sometimes, by everybody. :)

Simple enough, if it really isn't silly, then prove it.

Or realize you might have that messed up?

The time and space needed for the proof is only limited by you.

I've been on here well over 10 years and started out just like you
did, by pissing, what seemed like, everyone off. :)

If you don't change ever, you aren't growing, might as well be dead?

Improve me and you both, Frank. :)

Start a new thread about your process/es of heat treatment to make
a "tough knife" that has an extra hard (edge holding) edge. I'm
really wanting to learn all those methods possible to do that. :)

And the pros and cons of each method needs to be worked out too.

I'll learn a thing or two about that and you'll learn to be careful
what you say? ;)

As far as knives go, all I've ever cared about is making a knife
that can hold its edge the best it can. So this will be new
territory for me.

Is it posible to make an edge holding knife that can't break?

What else you think you know that's worth typing out and so getting
tested by the English speaking world? ;)

You game, Frank?

Alvin in AZ (not looking for stupid-ass followers and not
looking-to-be-a stupid-ass follower neither)
ps- Hey guys, how about a quote or two from my dad? :)
"[to anybody and everybody] I'm right and you're wrong and
that's all there is to it" -Dad
"[alvin] You don't know anything" -Dad
"[alvin] You don't know how to do anything, when I was your
age I was... [fill in the blank with some grand task :]" -Dad
pps- he never changed out a ring and pinion! ;)
ppps- and he never made a knife that could hold an edge like mine! :)
pppps- otherwise he's pretty much got me with that one. :/ LOL :)
.