Re: Scottish Feudal Titles Questions

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 18:35:42 -0700 (PDT), MUGSY0001@xxxxxxx wrote:

While I wouldn't dream of holding myself a peer to the likes of
Patrick, a learned scholar indeed, I would like to make one counter
suggestion to his honest answer of "yes" to the supposed connection of
LOM titles and Scots barons.

Paper baronies are no almost nothing at all except a title. No
funtional rights over the defined jurisdictions (if they are even
defined at all) exist and Lyon recognition MIGHT (that one was for you
B.G.) be allowed to a select few. This may change with the new Lyon
having come to power and I eagerly await to see how the cases in
November play-out.

However, to lump Scots barons in with LOM's is a bit foolhardy. They
are totally different. You see, they exist in two very different
legal formats. The Scots baronies were intentionally severed from
their connection to real land. They exist apart from the original
roots and meaning. LOM's, however, ARE land. Lordships of the manor
are, in legal fact, a strange variety of real property/real estate.
They have three functional, partible aspects; the title, the rights,
and the land. As is almost always the case, LOM's exist with only the
first of the three remaining. This, would be similar (somewhat) to
how a Scots baron would exist (title only).

However, a very few LOM's do have "purpose." Meaning, those extreme
few (and it is a very small number indeed) that were intact enough to
be registered with HM's Land Registry exist in another cadre
altogether. These rather elite handful of titles carry with them
registered, enforceable rights over, under, and upon the defined
jursidictions (which must be on-file with The Registry by way of a
Land Ordiance Survey map). These rights may include partial mineral
rights, rights to harbors, verges, and the like. IF registered with
HM's Land Registry the rights do exist legally and, much like
Americans have surface and sub-surface estates, they are exerciseable.

Men like Mark Roberts (of Trelleck) have flogged paper lordships
(those made up of only part one of three) in efforts to extort monies
from ignorant (and scared) citizens. The legal ambiguity of non-
registered lordships is muddled enough to cause some to actually pay
up rather than fight a subsequent legal case. However, were a man
like Roberts to ever find himself holding a registered manor, complete
with a list of land-based real estate rights, it would be a very
different story indeed. It wouldn't be a very long court case
whatsoever, actually. The residents of the land take subject to the
LOM even today which, I would argue, is why they are not at all like
Scots baronies. One is severed from land while the other IS land
(Meggary's Law of Prop). While I would venture that 95-99% of
lordships are title only and non-registered, the few that exist apart
from this motly crew must not be simply thrown in the the rest.
Frankly speaking, a registered lordship is (in my humble opinion) a
far finer thing than any non-registered, unrecognized paper Scots
earldom.

For more info go here:

www1.landregistry.gov.uk/assets/library/documents/lrpg022.pdf

Now, if they just weren't so bloody rare...not many cases for study
and those that are, are often guarded by scholarly owners with the
good-sense to keep quiet.

Pardons, Patrick, for arguing such a counter-point to your own.
However, I hope I have pointed out that these two forms of title
aren't simply the same.....just most of them are!

With Kind Regards,
An American Trapped In America

I don't really disagree with anything you have written above.

I am, of course, aware that LOMs and SBs are different legal animals.
The problem for me is that both animals have become debased.

Fifty years ago, when I was a kid, both LOMs and SBs were treated with
respect. Today, principally due to the likes of Manorial Auctioneers,
they have become a commodity, actively being bought and sold over the
counter. I personally find this incredibly distasteful.

The advertising puff used by these "title touts" is despicable,
appealing direct to the baser instincts of "wannabe" lords and ladies.
To say "Use your title to get the best seat in a restaurant" is
ridiculous. It might happen in the USA, where people are so gullible
about these matters, but not in the UK.

I could go on, but I think you get a flavour of my views.

Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Editor - Cracroft's Peerage
The Complete Guide to the British Peerage & Baronetage
www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk
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