Re: Baron courts

On 10 Jun, 13:35, "gra...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx"
<gra...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 10 Jun, 20:39, Greg <scoti...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:





On 10 Jun, 12:22, "gra...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx"

<gra...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 10 Jun, 03:08, Greg <scoti...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On 9 Jun, 17:54, "gra...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx"

<gra...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 9 Jun, 01:56, Greg <scoti...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On 8 Jun, 13:35, "gra...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx"

<gra...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 7 Jun, 04:19, Nathaniel Taylor <nltay...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

In article
<bb37de84-a232-436a-a6c2-7b9a4e714...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,

 "gra...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <gra...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 6 Jun, 22:55, Nathaniel Taylor <nltay...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In article
<71f8f63e-b963-4548-9ac6-405046d03...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,

 "gra...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <gra...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Here is a quote from from the Senior-Milne website:

Quote:
As immediate vassals (i.e. tenants-in-chief) of the King, earls and
barons had a duty and a right to attend the King's Court or Curia
Regis (of which they were the peers - which simply meant that they
were equal in degree - Latin 'pares' - as vassals of their immediate
feudal superior); this court gradually evolved into Parliament. [end
quote]

At the very early period which he is discussing, this Court was both a
Court of Justice and a Council for decision making. Only the great
barons attended at this period ­ you can check the sederunts from
Rhymer¹s Foedera, where he quotes formal letters drafted at these
Parliaments. It is clear that the minor barons held by the same tenure
as the great barons, but they did not have the same status. The word
³peer² is quite anachronistic in this context. That word was imported
from France in the C16/17 and there it had a slightly different
meaning, more akin to the use of ³grandee² in Spain. It came to be
used to mean a member of the Upper House of Parliament (the Lords)
some time in C18. By now we are in England after the Act of Union of
1707.

PS What Mr Findlater says about the word 'peer' is quite simply
rubbish and what I say on my site is accurate. The word 'peer' means
'equal in degree' as a feudal vassal. Has Mr. Findlater heard of Magna
Carta? Possibly not. Either way I recommend that he goes and reads it.
He will find the word peer being used in its proper context (er,
several hundred years before he claims it was imported from France).
What nonsense! Has Mr. Findlater never heard of the famous 'Peers of
Charlemagne'?

Magna carta's usage (pares sui, an explicitly elastic term indicating
comparable status, with reference both to 'homines liberi' [many times]
and to 'comites et barones' [once]) is distinct from Senior-Milne's
usage in the quoted passage--"king's court or curia regis of which they
were the peers"--which would have made no sense in 1215.  Moving the
goalposts a bit, eh?

As for the 'peers of Charlemagne': Findlater has likely heard of them,
but Charlemagne never did.   As a rank or class of persons they are a
literary construct which certainly postdates the creation, around 1275,
of an analogous instution by the Capetians.  

Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:  http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/-Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No it isn't. Peers meant vassals of equal degree. Period.

But, you said ... Oh bother.  Eventually the goalposts will tire you out
with all that shifting.

If you are just playing about with these ideas, like an eccentric
gentleman, rather than crassly trying to make money off them (like the
windsreen man from Maryland, or what's-his-name who used to extort
landowners before the AFT act), does that really make it any less
tiresome?  

Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:  http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/-Hidequotedtext-

- Show quoted text -

You are talking nonsense. The word peer meant equal in degree as
immediate vassals of a given superior. This is the sense in which I
used it. Barons were peers of the realm, meaning that they were peers
of the court of the kingdom i.e. Parliament. Feudal barons were the
original and proper peers. This feudal term ('peer') was filched by
their successors (barons by writ and patent), that is those who were
not peers in the feudal sense. It is really very simple.

PS If you find it tiresome then don't get involved. Go and make
yourself a nice cup of hot chocolate.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hello Graham,

As much as I've read of this thread, and your opinions on this subject
- I still don't get your point...

What message are you trying to communicate?  What is the return for
all of this effort?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Truth.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Truth

Sorry Graham, but you could be a bit more vague?  I was under the
impression that you might take a moment to perhaps describe what your
labyrinth of subjective logic was trying to correct, or what you
expected to accomplish with same.

TRUTH: It is Monday evening 7:07 pm PST or 3:07 am Tuesday in the UK..

Now you- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Certainly, I can be more vague... possibly or maybe perhaps

Actually, I merely brought the subject up as a matter of interest. I
am guessing that almost no-one is aware of the survival of regality
courts or the power of lords of regality to create barons.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
Actually, I merely brought the subject up as a matter of interest. I
am guessing that almost no-one is aware of the survival of regality
courts or the power of lords of regality to create barons

Hi Graham,

Very good.  I can see the interest.  I don't think I missed it, but
what modern -recent examples do we have, and where were these barons
created and by whom?  Are we talking Scotland? England?  both?
neither?

Were these things - purchased? if so, by whom? from whom? and how
much?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Answers in order: Yes, no, 7, maybe, 4.5 miles, both, last
Wednesday...

England and Scotland
In England, Palatine Earls and Bishops could create barons; the
Palatine Earls of Chester had their own parliament and their own
barons (e.g. Kinderton which continued into the 17th century I
believe). I do not doubt that the Queen as Duke of Lancaster can
create barons of the Duchy.
Scottish earls were creating barons into the 1990s according to Hugh
Peskett, Scottish Editor of Burke's. I know the details but cannot
reveal them.
I gave an example of a lord of regality granting a barony; Leven in
Fife. See my previous posting.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Quote: I know the details but cannot reveal them.

What?

Quote:I gave an example of a lord of regality granting a barony

Well, for the purposes of the discusion, please cite the example
again. I seem to remember that errection of a barony was by royal
grant alone: now, in the context of a colony that me be a different
story, but in tems of modern society I have a bit of difficulty
seeing the concept fly.
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Baron courts
    ... barons had a duty and a right to attend the King's Court or Curia ... Regis (of which they were the peers - which simply meant that they ... were equal in degree - Latin 'pares' - as vassals of their immediate ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Re: Baron courts
    ... barons had a duty and a right to attend the King's Court or Curia ... Regis (of which they were the peers - which simply meant that they ... Palatine Earls and Bishops could create barons; ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Re: Baron courts
    ... barons had a duty and a right to attend the King's Court or Curia ... Regis (of which they were the peers - which simply meant that they ... Palatine Earls and Bishops could create barons; ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Re: Baron courts
    ... barons had a duty and a right to attend the King's Court or Curia ... Regis (of which they were the peers - which simply meant that they ... Palatine Earls and Bishops could create barons; ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Re: Baron courts
    ... barons had a duty and a right to attend the King's Court or Curia ... Regis (of which they were the peers - which simply meant that they ... were equal in degree - Latin 'pares' - as vassals of their immediate ...
    (rec.heraldry)