Re: Supporters for Irish Presidents (was Re: Barony of Slane)

On Nov 8, 4:59 pm, Ralph.Mott...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Nov 7, 11:19 am, "glu...@xxxxx" <glu...@xxxxx> wrote:





On Nov 7, 2:50 am, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

glu...@xxxxx wrote:
It would have been fair enough had you confined your observations,
George, to the heraldic issues. Instead you made ad hominem allegations
against me of envy, pettiness and even communistic tendencies. There is
of course a seamless connection between accommodating hoaxers and
fantasists such as MacCarthy, Maguire, Davison, Foran, Braganza clients,
feudal lords, and so on, and casually continuing to grant arms without
proper legal authority, occasionally aggrandising grantees with the
additional gift of supporters. Again, no Irish President other than Mrs
McAleese used supporters, while the choice of red and grey squirrels as
symbols of unity between native and settler Irish constituted an
heraldic gaffe indeed, in that in the wild the grey is driving the red
to the point of extinction.

Sean Murphy
Irish Chiefshttp://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eseanjmurphy/chiefs/-Hidequoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sean,
There is not a seamless connection. Let's keep our focus on each of
these issues.

Need for correcting the legislated basis for Irish heraldry - this is
before the government and likely something will occur.
It is hard to look for anything sinister in the heraldic office
"casually" continuing to grant arms. They were simply doing their job
- what they were paid to do. The problem of legislation needs always
be laid before governments and legislatures rather than their
officials. There has been a good effort to bring these issues before
the Irish government - some of the proposed changes have been
technical ones to address the issue of correcting the legal foundation
for the republican office of arms while others aim at reforming or
altering Irish heraldry. The latter proposals are not strictly
necessary. They are perhaps desirable, but that is ultimately an Irish
question and one open for discussion. There is no connection between
the need for legislative correction and any errors or questionable
actions on the part of officials of the National Library. Even had
there been no such incidents the issue of the legal foundation of the
office of arms would need to be addressed.

The question of mistakes made by the heralds in granting arms to
hoaxers like the McCarthy Mor is an intersting one - and should there
be a future review of grants these should be looked at. The issue of
how to deal with claims to chieftainship and the like is one that
needs to be addressed, but I don't know that there is anyone left who
has not already noted these concerns - what remains is to establish a
mechanism to deal with these grants and I will be interested in seeing
how the government addresses itself to this one.

The issue of the squirrels is an amusing one - I guess that this
continues a heraldic tradition of new heraldic monsters (The red grey
squirrel) and highlights the way in which we can look at charges
drawing multiple and sometimes humourous allusions. The issue of
supporters for the president is not a problem of Irish law or
constitution - it is simply an expression of a disagreement between
you and the herald who granted these arms as to whether they are apt
and a disagreement as to whether there should be any heraldic
recognition of high office or historical heritage.

George Lucki- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Comment: Unfortunately these little nut crackers are rodents and one
wonders why rodents were used as Supporters. As I write this note, I
am inclined to wonder if Rattus norvegicus have ever been used as
Supporters. We all know how tough and resourceful they are. The
embodiment of tenacity and survival under extreme conditions! As
ever, Ralph Mottram.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't know if they have ever been used as supporters but the rat has
apppeared in heraldry - and you will find him very occasionally in
continental heraldry - sometimes in canting arms.
One recent example is from the Canadian register - see:
http://www.gg.ca/heraldry/pub-reg/project-pic.asp?lang=e&ProjectID=91&ProjectElementID=348

Acually Canadian heraldry often sees our favourite rodent - the
beaver. I think you will find the full panoply of beasts including
other rodents such as the rabbit used heraldically. Squirrels as such
have previously appeared in arms - but among all of the heraldic
beasts their contribution - through the fur vair has been vairy
significant!

George Lucki


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