Re: Scottish Feudal Barony titles- the sales game is over.

People can blather on for as long as they like but the fact of the matter is that feudal baronies are legal titles of nobility. End of argument. It is this very fact that gets up their collective noses. After all, if they weren't they wouldn't make such a fuss about them.

<glucki@xxxxx> wrote in message news:1194555398.538470.287290@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Nov 8, 9:50 am, MUGSY0...@xxxxxxx wrote:
I find it a shame that such a long and proud tradition, that of
Scottish feudal baronies, has fallen into sad decline. While a relic,
prior to the Abolition of Feudal Tenures it still did have some
relevant connection to land. Now, removed from the source from which
they sprang (land ownership), these titles seem hollow and empty.
LL's grant of arms and addictaments was, naturally, a leading reason
for non-UK purchasers to invest but, in truth, was only an exercise in
vanity. The real shame is the seperation from land removed LL's
willingness (or ability?) to verify true ownership. This exodus of
gov't interaction leaves "the market" open to mass exploitation,
shotty research, and misrepresentation; a proud traditon come to
naught.

It must be argued, however, that there are significant distinctions
between the current status of Lords of the Manor and Scottish feudal
barons. As Ralph was correct to point out, manors are still legally
tied to land. In fact, they are a variant form of real estate and
subject to much of the same legislation as, say, a house or acre of
land. Granted, the VAST number have fallen into near non-existence if
not total extinction. However, a very few were "in-tact" enough to be
registered with The Land Registry prior to 2003. This very slim
minority enjoy legislative protection and verification of title by The
Land Registration Act of 2002.

Often, these are the very few manors that have any rights still
attached. These registered rights must appear in the body of the
official title extract. You see, manorial rights exist in two forms;
registered and unregistered. Unregistered LOMs, like Mark Roberts,
have a number of rights; however improvable. They are deemed,
legally, as "overriding interests" but will cease to exist in law
after the year 2013. Registered rights (those in the extract itself)
are deemed "franchises" and WILL continue to exist after 2013.

Meaning, the only manorial rights that will exist after 2013 (10 years
after registration cut-off) are those of the tiny minority of
registered manors and, further, only those fewer number with rights
specifically mentioned in the body of the registry extract. This will
almost totally eliminate the threat to regular home-owners/land-owners
who have been troubled by men with un-registered manors who claim
rights to rents and so forth (Mark Roberts).

This doesn't mean that un-registered lordships will cease to exist.
They will exist in title only much as Scottish feudal baronies now do;
unregisterable, unprovable, without any connection to land or rights
thereto.

So, you see, there are two groups of lords of the manor. Those
registered exist in a legal form almost totally apart from their
unregistered counter-parts. The majority, being unregistered, is what
we see being bought and sold/scammed for tiny sums of only a few
thousand pounds. Registered manors, especially those with registered
rights/franchises, almost never come to market as they are simply so
very few in number. I've been told, though I cannot confirm, that
there are only about a hundred registered manors and only about thirty
with specific rights mentioned within The Land Registry extract
itself.

Thus, it would be far more accurate to compare Scottish feudal
baronies to UN-registered manors (and their subsequent lords).
Registered manors continue to exist much as feudal baronies did prior
to LL's removal and, sometimes, with far more real and functional
rights/franchises than their Scottish counter-parts ever did.

Food for thought.

The problem with Scottish feudal baronies in my mind lies further back
in time. This form of land ownership was already less relevant and
less valuable and any substantial judicial role, etc. had vanished
long ago. The difficulty is that the 'barony' as opposed to the whole
of the land and barony came to be discovered as a marketable commodity
on its own and came to be bought and sold on its sentimental or vanity
value rather than on the basis of its underlying economic value or
underlying baronial jurisdiction (those had less value). The theory
that the purchase of a barony was a very minor form of ennoblement
gave it cachet and marketability and the invention of heraldic
additaments gave it more value to those who like that sort of thing. I
expect that the appeal for some was to purchase something that allowed
you to add Baron of X (holder of the Barony of X) to your name so that
folks who did not know better would mistake that person for a
hereditary titled noble or at the very least a life peer - someone of
noble lineage or considerable merits as opposed to the purchaser of a
quirky property. The end of meaningful barony was brought about by the
decline of feudal tenure, the end of any substantial baronial
jurisdiction and the peddling of baronies as a vanity for purchase.
The feudal barony was marginalized and was more a collectible than
even a heritage.

The points you make about lordships of the manor are interesting.
Ultimately though they are really nothing more than the purchase of a
bunch of residual and generally trivial rights that may or may not be
in any way enforceable. The sale prices of such things are likely out
of step with the economic value of the real property and also reflects
a vanity - that lordship of this sort was anything other than
ownership or taht ownership of the residual manorial rights to the
extent they exist was in some way related to the gentle ownership of
the whole of the manor and lands.

Eventually the market in these things may dry up - why because the
value of the underlying property is not related to the proices folks
have paid for the vanity. Meanwhile, owners of such things should
remember that it may be equally wise to invest in rare and expensive
tulip bulbs whose price should only rise given the scarcity of some
varieties. Or has that been done already? Hmmm.

George Lucki



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Relevant Pages

  • Re: Scottish Feudal Barony titles- the sales game is over.
    ... Scottish feudal baronies, ... these are the very few manors that have any rights still ... specifically mentioned in the body of the registry extract. ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Re: Scottish Feudal Barony titles- the sales game is over.
    ... they sprang (land ownership), these titles seem hollow and empty. ... these are the very few manors that have any rights still ... specifically mentioned in the body of the registry extract. ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Re: Scottish Feudal Barony titles- the sales game is over.
    ... they sprang (land ownership), these titles seem hollow and empty. ... these are the very few manors that have any rights still ... specifically mentioned in the body of the registry extract. ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Re: Scottish Feudal Barony titles- the sales game is over.
    ... I don't blame you for holding such a bleak outlook on English manors. ... are not registered with the UK gov't via The Land ... of these unregistered manors will have ANY rights exercisable after ... Land Registry Extract are the only "title" that will have any ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Re: LoM / Feudal Baronies auction
    ... they sprang (land ownership), these titles seem hollow and empty. ... these are the very few manors that have any rights still ... specifically mentioned in the body of the registry extract. ...
    (rec.heraldry)