Re: Supporters for Irish Presidents (was Re: Barony of Slane)

On Nov 7, 2:50 am, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
glu...@xxxxx wrote:
It would have been fair enough had you confined your observations,
George, to the heraldic issues. Instead you made ad hominem allegations
against me of envy, pettiness and even communistic tendencies. There is
of course a seamless connection between accommodating hoaxers and
fantasists such as MacCarthy, Maguire, Davison, Foran, Braganza clients,
feudal lords, and so on, and casually continuing to grant arms without
proper legal authority, occasionally aggrandising grantees with the
additional gift of supporters. Again, no Irish President other than Mrs
McAleese used supporters, while the choice of red and grey squirrels as
symbols of unity between native and settler Irish constituted an
heraldic gaffe indeed, in that in the wild the grey is driving the red
to the point of extinction.

Sean Murphy
Irish Chiefshttp://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eseanjmurphy/chiefs/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sean,
There is not a seamless connection. Let's keep our focus on each of
these issues.

Need for correcting the legislated basis for Irish heraldry - this is
before the government and likely something will occur.
It is hard to look for anything sinister in the heraldic office
"casually" continuing to grant arms. They were simply doing their job
- what they were paid to do. The problem of legislation needs always
be laid before governments and legislatures rather than their
officials. There has been a good effort to bring these issues before
the Irish government - some of the proposed changes have been
technical ones to address the issue of correcting the legal foundation
for the republican office of arms while others aim at reforming or
altering Irish heraldry. The latter proposals are not strictly
necessary. They are perhaps desirable, but that is ultimately an Irish
question and one open for discussion. There is no connection between
the need for legislative correction and any errors or questionable
actions on the part of officials of the National Library. Even had
there been no such incidents the issue of the legal foundation of the
office of arms would need to be addressed.

The question of mistakes made by the heralds in granting arms to
hoaxers like the McCarthy Mor is an intersting one - and should there
be a future review of grants these should be looked at. The issue of
how to deal with claims to chieftainship and the like is one that
needs to be addressed, but I don't know that there is anyone left who
has not already noted these concerns - what remains is to establish a
mechanism to deal with these grants and I will be interested in seeing
how the government addresses itself to this one.

The issue of the squirrels is an amusing one - I guess that this
continues a heraldic tradition of new heraldic monsters (The red grey
squirrel) and highlights the way in which we can look at charges
drawing multiple and sometimes humourous allusions. The issue of
supporters for the president is not a problem of Irish law or
constitution - it is simply an expression of a disagreement between
you and the herald who granted these arms as to whether they are apt
and a disagreement as to whether there should be any heraldic
recognition of high office or historical heritage.

George Lucki

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Validity of Irish Grants of Arms
    ... have a Grant of Arms should apply to the College of Arms in London like ... The fact that the Irish started granting Arms after the transfer of ... after the passing by Westminster of the Republic of Ireland Act, ... So this is exactly what the Genealogy & Heraldry Bill, ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Re: Validity of Irish Grants of Arms
    ... British thought that the removal of Ulster's Office from Dublin Castle ... have a Grant of Arms should apply to the College of Arms in London like ... The fact that the Irish started granting Arms after the transfer of ... So this is exactly what the Genealogy & Heraldry Bill, ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Validity of Irish Grants of Arms
    ... Ulster's Office to the Irish government in 1943 to the enactment by ... Westminster of The Republic of Ireland Act, ... English provincial herald, Norroy King of Arms, recognised that ... In any case, you know, this is what the Genealogy & Heraldry Bill, 2006 ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Re: Validity of Irish Grants of Arms
    ... Ulster's Office to the Irish government in 1943 to the enactment by ... Westminster of The Republic of Ireland Act, ... English provincial herald, Norroy King of Arms, recognised that ... In any case, you know, this is what the Genealogy & Heraldry Bill, 2006 ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Re: Brian Gregory Hamilton
    ... of arms of the U.S. presidents. ... inconsistent with republican government. ... heraldry, ... substantial use of coats of arms in the United States. ...
    (rec.heraldry)