Re: Supporters for Irish Presidents (was Re: Barony of Slane)

On Nov 4, 2:01 pm, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Laurence Jones wrote:
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan:

Would it not have been better for the CHI to have granted arms for the
office of the President of Ireland (which I assume is a coporation
sole in Irish law) and then holders of the said office could have
impaled their personal arms with the arms of the President of Ireland
whilst they held that office?

The following appear in the register of arms:

Vol Q., fol.21, 21st November 1945:

President of Ireland

The shield is impaled. Dexter the arms of Ireland and sinister the personal
arms of the President of Ireland, the shiled being encircled by a lunula or
and surmounted by an Irish helmet of the fourteenth century.
Supporters: dexter an Irish elk, sinister an Irish wolfhound proper.
Mottto: Do dhun glóire Dé & onóra Éireann.

Interesting. It does not seem that Irish Presidents used these arms of
office, preferring their personal arms. I was aware that MacLysaght was
keen to revive the use of supporters for people of high rank, and as I
much as I admire the man and his work, I would not agree. Again,
supporters were only granted to President McAleese and none of her
predecessors appear to have used them. As difficult as the task might
be, the President should be persuaded to cede the use of the doubly
inappropriate red and grey squirrel supporters if the planned
retrospective validation of arms grants pre-2005 proceeds. Other
grantees allowed supporters ditto, including former Chief Herald O Donoghue.

Sean Murphy
Irish 'Feudal Titles' (with comments on supporters)http://homepage.eircom..net/%7Eseanjmurphy/chiefs/feudaltitles.htm- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sean,
While supporters are not appropriate for an individual of middling
accomplishments (like ourselves) it is extraordinarily petty
republicanism to deny appropriate heraldic distinguishimng marks
related to high office - high offices of extraordinary service to the
state or to men and women of great merit. The president of Ireland
certainly deserves some heraldic recognition - and lifetime supporters
are perfectly apt - not as a mark that he or she is of greater quality
but as a mark of high esteem and respect for the individual who has
received through election and has been willing to shoulder the high
office of president. The marks of esteem that we grant to our highest
officers of state or government are also a call to others to accord
them respect due to those who represent us.

I have been more than patient with your posts of late - valueing the
work you had done in exposing matters related to the McCarthy Mor or
your efforts to bring to light issues with some of the grants made to
pseudo-Branganca 'nobles', but your relentless attacks on every aspect
of the work of the Chief Herald's office are neither measured nor
constructive - they go beyond merited criticism to what would appear
to be something personal - perhaps reflecting some sense of personal
injury or wrong - and it is not clear what the good outcome of such
broad attack would be - in the end such attacks do as much to
discredit Sean Murphy as they bring sympathy to the Irish office of
arms that is relentlessly attacked.

Sean, in my view it is good to correct errors and important for a new
republic to evolve armorial practices that are in line with its own
ethos and sensibilities - but there needs also be arespect for history
even if it is not the history you would have wished Ireland had - and
that means a respect for the heritage of Irish families who obtained
titles, augmented arms and the like under the former governments. Of
course these would carry no precedence in modern times and come with
no privileges, but they would respect historical heritage and the
property and identity of Ireland's historical families. As a mature
republic Ireland may discover that it is possible to honour the true
and substantial achievements of its citizens with awards that
distinguish these citizens with a precedence not of rank but a
precedence of esteem - unless the envious of middling accomplishments,
fewer merits and greater vanity protest that their equality is
compromised by thanking those who have contributed more. Just because
you and I are unlikely to ever do anything that would merit such
recognition does not mean that those who do should not enjoy such
gifts from us. Shame on you for such pettiness as suggesting that the
President should not be allowed lifetime heraldic supporters.

Any nation needs its history - and Irish history is the history of a
stratified society - a society of Chiefd and followers and later a
society of peers, genry and other commoners. There is a legacy -
whether in inherited wealth, inherited titles or inherited arms of
that time and like all heritage this needs to be respected.The modern
democracy will create no new peers and of course citizen is a very
high rank of this society equated with the political enfranchisement
that was not availabel in the past save to the highest elites - so
then I see as nothing but pettiness and envy a desire to strip from
the rememberances of historical dignities and historical status from
those who have inherited this property. After all it does not diminish
you or anyone else that others have inherited something from their
fathers. False chiefs are another matter, as would be creating new
chiefs - but as in the field of genealogy or in other aspects of the
work of the NLI - there is an important mandate to preserve true
heritage - whether it is in keeping with modern sensibilities or not.
In my life I have run across one group intent on destroying historical
heritage and onstripping others of their property, and happily in most
countries where it held sway communism has been itself relegated to an
unloved dustbin of history.

I continue to be supportive of placing Irish heraldry on a sound legal
footing and on the need to discern heraldic practices that are in
keeping with both Irish history (including researchg into early
heraldic practices) and mpdern sensibilities. I think it has merit to
review grants made pre-2005 and not validate (revoke) those

My words may be harsh, but I frame them this way to call for
moderation and respect for tradition and the property of others as
folks continue to advocate for legislative or procedural reform.

George Lucki

.

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