Re: Supporters for Irish Presidents (was Re: Barony of Slane)

On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 11:44:28 +0000, Sean J Murphy
<sjbmurphy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Michael Merrigan wrote:

On Nov 3, 12:14 am, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Graham Milne wrote:

If you can't get it right about the Barony of Slane, how can we rely on
your other opinions?

One strike and I'm out, eh? Well, let's wait for my fuller report on the
Barony of Slane before writing me off completely.

Sean Murphy



A Sheáin, a Chara,

Irrespective of whether this "Barony of Slane" exists or not and I
venture that it does not, it was wholly inappropriate for the Chief
Herald of Ireland to issue a Grant of Arms with supporters etc to Mr.
Woods.

Besides the Arms granted to the President of Ireland, supporters
should not be granted to any individual for as to do so, suggests that
something akin to the British order of precedence exists in our
Republic. This may well be acceptable in the various parts of the
United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, but not so in
Ireland. Indeed, even the most junior of civil servant in Ireland
knows and fully appreciates that such is a nonsense in our Republic.

This is but one example of the fanciful notions of its functions and
powers that crept into the Office of the Chief Herald from the early
1980s onwards - it's simply embarrassing to say the least. To avoid
any repeat of this utter nonsense, the Genealogy & Heraldry Bill, 2006
clearly set out what could be granted and what was to be totally
avoided i.e. trappings of nobility and monarchy.

In fact, it may be the case that anybody puporting to act on the
authority of the Government of Ireland as per the Letters Patent and
granting supporters in recognition of "feudal baronies" or "manorial
lordships" may have acted in a manner which renders such a grant
worthless - irrespective of the pre-May 2005 problem. Certainly when
there is a legislative mechanism introduced to rectify the problem of
the pre-May 2005 grants, these grants simply may not capable of being
included.

Interesting times ahead for grantees with "baronial" supporters as
seeking any redress from the State could even be more costly than
their baronial purchases.

Caveat emptor!!!!


I am glad that you will not countenance any automatic retrospective
validation of bogus or questionable pedigrees, arms or titles, and that
we are largely in agreement concerning the inappropriateness of grants
of supporters in (the Republic of) Ireland. However, why make an
exception of the supporters granted to our current President Mary
McAleese? I am working on an article on Irish presidential arms, and
cannot find that any other President had supporters, so that in terms of
symmetry alone the decision appears strange. Again, arms with supporters
for life were granted to President McAleese by Chief Herald Brendan O
Donoghue on St Brigid's Day, 1 February 2000
(http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/misc/mcaleesearms.jpg,
reference vol Y, fol 74).

When you consider that the supporters chosen were a red and grey
squirrel, absurdity enters the frame. The red and grey were selected to
represent the native and settler traditions in Ireland respectively, in
tune with ideas of parity of esteem associated with the then still
evolving Northern Ireland peace process. However, it is well known that
the invading grey is threatening the very survival of the native red
squirrel, and plans are afoot to cull the former
(http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2007/05/14/story32616.asp). But of
course the main objection is want of legal authority to allow
supporters, which should be added to the existing problem of legal
status in relation to President McAleese's arms and all other grants of
the Chief Herald pre-2005 at least (post-2005 also in my opinion). So in
the case of the President's arms, and any other otherwise acceptable
grants of arms with supporters pre-2005, the solution is retrospectively
to confirm by legislation the arms only without the supporters.

Sean Murphy
Irish 'Feudal Titles' (with comments on supporters)
http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eseanjmurphy/chiefs/feudaltitles.htm

Would it not have been better for the CHI to have granted arms for the
office of the President of Ireland (which I assume is a coporation
sole in Irish law) and then holders of the said office could have
impaled their personal arms with the arms of the President of Ireland
whilst they held that office?

Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Editor - Cracroft's Peerage
The Complete Guide to the British Peerage & Baronetage
www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk
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Relevant Pages

  • Re: President George H.Bush and the Order of Bath
    ... of course all citizens in the country are entitled to supporters. ... "Mister President" and is nothing more than a citizen of the Republic ... there is no requirement that a knight have arms (which ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Supporters for Irish Presidents (was Re: Barony of Slane)
    ... Herald of Ireland to issue a Grant of Arms with supporters etc to Mr. ... the pre-May 2005 grants, these grants simply may not capable of being ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Re: Supporters for Irish Presidents (was Re: Barony of Slane)
    ... impaled their personal arms with the arms of the President of Ireland ... and surmounted by an Irish helmet of the fourteenth century. ... Supporters: dexter an Irish elk, ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Re: Supporters for Irish Presidents (was Re: Barony of Slane)
    ... Would it not have been better for the CHI to have granted arms for the ... impaled their personal arms with the arms of the President of Ireland ... I was aware that MacLysaght was keen to revive the use of supporters for people of high rank, and as I much as I admire the man and his work, I would not agree. ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Supporters on Arms for the President of Ireland
    ... impaled their personal arms with the arms of the President of Ireland ... and surmounted by an Irish helmet of the fourteenth century. ... Supporters: dexter an Irish elk, ...
    (rec.heraldry)