Supporters for Irish Presidents (was Re: Barony of Slane)

Michael Merrigan wrote:

On Nov 3, 12:14 am, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Graham Milne wrote:

If you can't get it right about the Barony of Slane, how can we rely on
your other opinions?

One strike and I'm out, eh? Well, let's wait for my fuller report on the
Barony of Slane before writing me off completely.

Sean Murphy



A Sheáin, a Chara,

Irrespective of whether this "Barony of Slane" exists or not and I
venture that it does not, it was wholly inappropriate for the Chief
Herald of Ireland to issue a Grant of Arms with supporters etc to Mr.
Woods.

Besides the Arms granted to the President of Ireland, supporters
should not be granted to any individual for as to do so, suggests that
something akin to the British order of precedence exists in our
Republic. This may well be acceptable in the various parts of the
United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, but not so in
Ireland. Indeed, even the most junior of civil servant in Ireland
knows and fully appreciates that such is a nonsense in our Republic.

This is but one example of the fanciful notions of its functions and
powers that crept into the Office of the Chief Herald from the early
1980s onwards - it's simply embarrassing to say the least. To avoid
any repeat of this utter nonsense, the Genealogy & Heraldry Bill, 2006
clearly set out what could be granted and what was to be totally
avoided i.e. trappings of nobility and monarchy.

In fact, it may be the case that anybody puporting to act on the
authority of the Government of Ireland as per the Letters Patent and
granting supporters in recognition of "feudal baronies" or "manorial
lordships" may have acted in a manner which renders such a grant
worthless - irrespective of the pre-May 2005 problem. Certainly when
there is a legislative mechanism introduced to rectify the problem of
the pre-May 2005 grants, these grants simply may not capable of being
included.

Interesting times ahead for grantees with "baronial" supporters as
seeking any redress from the State could even be more costly than
their baronial purchases.

Caveat emptor!!!!


I am glad that you will not countenance any automatic retrospective validation of bogus or questionable pedigrees, arms or titles, and that we are largely in agreement concerning the inappropriateness of grants of supporters in (the Republic of) Ireland. However, why make an exception of the supporters granted to our current President Mary McAleese? I am working on an article on Irish presidential arms, and cannot find that any other President had supporters, so that in terms of symmetry alone the decision appears strange. Again, arms with supporters for life were granted to President McAleese by Chief Herald Brendan O Donoghue on St Brigid's Day, 1 February 2000 (http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/misc/mcaleesearms.jpg, reference vol Y, fol 74).

When you consider that the supporters chosen were a red and grey squirrel, absurdity enters the frame. The red and grey were selected to represent the native and settler traditions in Ireland respectively, in tune with ideas of parity of esteem associated with the then still evolving Northern Ireland peace process. However, it is well known that the invading grey is threatening the very survival of the native red squirrel, and plans are afoot to cull the former (http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2007/05/14/story32616.asp). But of course the main objection is want of legal authority to allow supporters, which should be added to the existing problem of legal status in relation to President McAleese's arms and all other grants of the Chief Herald pre-2005 at least (post-2005 also in my opinion). So in the case of the President's arms, and any other otherwise acceptable grants of arms with supporters pre-2005, the solution is retrospectively to confirm by legislation the arms only without the supporters.

Sean Murphy
Irish 'Feudal Titles' (with comments on supporters) http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eseanjmurphy/chiefs/feudaltitles.htm
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Supporters for Irish Presidents (was Re: Barony of Slane)
    ... Herald of Ireland to issue a Grant of Arms with supporters etc to Mr. ... exception of the supporters granted to our current President Mary ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Re: Irish arms crisis again
    ... 1922 - independence for southern Ireland with Northern Ireland remaining in the UK, but Ulster's Office survives in Dublin. ... 1943 - establishment of Genealogical Office later also Office of the Chief Herald of Ireland attached to National Library, with Ulster's Office transferred to College of Arms and writ confined to Northern Ireland. ... 2007 - suspension of arms grants by Office of the Chief Herald pending clarification of the legal position. ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Re: Irish arms crisis again
    ... The Office of the Chief Herald has now adapted to ... Library of Ireland website: ... National Library in relation to the issuing of Grants of Arms.' ... An Irish Arms Crisishttp://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eseanjmurphy/chiefs/armscrisis.htm ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Re: Lifting of Suspension of Heraldic Services
    ... Arms and with out the let, hindrance, molestation, interruption, ... not recognise the CHI grants, the Irish grantees are no longer ... As an uninformed person, who is interested in heraldry, may I ask ... Ireland are ever likely to have any practical effects? ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Re: More shinannagins in the Office of the Chief Herald of Ireland
    ... abetted by the now Chief Herald Fergus Gillespie have ... granted Arms and Supporters to numerous "Irish Feudal Barons". ... done and either honour their grants or have the intestinal fortitude ... General of Ireland would be well advised to ignore them and leave them ...
    (rec.heraldry)