Re: Barony of Slane (was Re: Closure of Irish State Heraldic Museum)

If you can't get it right about the Barony of Slane, how can we rely on your other opinions?

"Sean J Murphy" <sjbmurphy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:SeMWi.22979$j7.433594@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
ralphmottram@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Nov 1, 4:20 pm, Roderick <pritchard...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Nov 1, 8:16 am, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


but of course the primary responsibility for what has been happening lies with those who
prostituted their office by accommodating hoaxers and fantasists such as
MacCarthy, Davison, Maguire, Saint Bar, Braganza, together with other
assorted Gaelic 'chiefs' and 'feudal lords', and indeed irresponsibly
continued to grant arms despite being informed that they lacked the
legal authority to do so.

I have never understood why Fergus Gillespie was not sent packing when
the MacCarthy fraud and all the others were uncovered. It would seem
that the last bit of good will that the Genealogical Office had with
the public and the government was spent in an effort to cover the
asses of those who made these serious errors in judgment, in
particular Gillespie himself.


Comment: I agree whole heartedly. I am reminded, in particular, of
Chief Herald Gillespie's
direct involvement with the sale for a significant amount of money, of
phony arms (including supporters) to Cyril Wood an unsuspecting
Canadian of Irish descent who thought his "grant" to be the hallmark
of success. This grant was for the non-existent "Feudal Barony of
Slane" which had long since become a full Irish Barony by Writ or
prescription -and subsequently ceased to exist (see " The Complete
Peerage-Cockayne". What I found particularly abhorrent was an image on
the web in which Gillespie appeared with Mr. Wood with the comment
that Wood and another Canadian from Montreal were in Ireland to invest
significant amounts of money in the Irish economy. Joviality all
around. Poor Mr. Wood. All dressed up and no place to go. The question
is, will he get his money back? As ever, Ralph Mottram.


On 15 October 1999 Fergus Gillespie, then Deputy to Chief Herald Brendan O Donoghue, granted arms with supporters for life to Cyril Woods (reference vol Y, fol 86). The arms are illustrated in Burke's Armorial Register at http://www.armorial-register.com/arms-ie/woods-c-arms.html On 30 June of the same year Mr O Donoghue had received from Mr Gillespie a grant of arms also with supporters for life (reference vol Y, fol 55). The practice of allowing supporters was as questionable as we now know the very act of granting arms was legally unsupported, and was reserved for those whom the Office of the Chief Herald considered worthy of special favour. Mr Woods was one of those who was allowed supporters by virtue of holding an alleged 'feudal barony', this being, as indicated above, the Barony of Slane.

We have discussed Irish 'feudal baronies' many times, and they are at least questionable, at worst entirely bogus. Where Slane falls I have not yet finally determined, but unfortunately in the light of what I know and what is written above I tend to believe that it may be in the latter class. In his patent to Mr Woods, Mr Gillespie asserted that he was 'acting on behalf of and by the authority of the Government of Ireland', which again we now know to be erroneous. Furthermore, Mr Gillespie declared that 'according to documents deposited in the Office of the Chief Herald of Ireland', Mr Woods 'was seized of the Barony of Slane in Ireland'. I have only relatively recently established that the term 'documents' in this context referred to a modern deed entered in the Registry of Deeds, with a mere statutory declaration of the existence of a feudal barony attached.

The disreputable practice of allowing supporters to 'feudal barons' recommended to the Office of the Chief Herald by title brokers has of course now been discontinued, but no effort has been made to amend the records of the office in relation to past grants. Recent ministerial comments in the Dáil indicate that in view of the problematic legal status of Irish grants of arms pre-2005, there are plans to validate them retrospectively by legislation. I will be resisting strongly any attempt to include in this retrospective validation any grants of the Chief Herald which have rubber stamped bogus or questionable pedigrees, arms or titles. It is a reflection not of my ability, but of the rock bottom standards applying in Irish heraldry and genealogy, that I cannot think of a single other professional with the capacity to check the validity of the information contained in such documents. However, prepare to be told again that leading Irish professional genealogists have declared that such and such pedigree and titular and armorial claims are valid, and that Murphy's criticisms can be disregarded as his credentials do not 'amount to much'.

Finally, I have survived threatened legal destruction to date primarily as a result of the quality and quantity of documentation in my possession which proves each and every one of my allegations, and I am still adding to my collection. I would therefore be very interested in knowing if the above mentioned photograph of the Deputy Chief Herald with the Feudal Baron is still accessible?

Sean Murphy
Irish 'Feudal Titles' http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Eseanjmurphy/chiefs/feudaltitles.htm

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