Re: Barony of Carbury

On Apr 28, 6:04 pm, Sean J Murphy <sjbmur...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Don Aitken wrote:
On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 14:49:58 +0100, Sean J Murphy
<sjbmur...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

It has been suggested that a difference between Irish and Scottish
'feudal baronies' is that the former cannot be said to have the same
degree of current legal status and recognition as the latter. Continued
Freedom of Information trawls have uncovered an Irish document which
raises some doubts about this claim. One of the most fascinating Irish
repositories is the Registry of Deeds off Henrietta Street, Dublin,
established in 1708 and 300 years old next year, and genuinely the
oldest continuous Irish office of state (the Office of the Chief Herald
was founded in 1943 not 1552). Established under a penal law against
Catholics, the Registry of Deeds has hitherto escaped the kind of damage
and destruction which have beset other Irish archives, but is now alas
due to be amalgamated with the Land Registry, the fate of its records
uncertain, but hopefully to be digitised (the National Archives in
Bishop Street has once again run out of storage space!).

I had been aware for some time that sellers of questioned Irish 'feudal
titles' had registered conveyances in the Registry of Deeds to enhance
the status of their wares, but had never succeeded in discovering such a
document. In response to a recent FOI request, the Office of the Chief
Herald has now released to me a copy of a deed of transfer dated 2 April
1993 relating to the sale of the Barony of Carbury by Viscount
Gormanston. There is a declaration by Viscount Gormanston to the effect
that the Barony of Carbury lies in County Sligo, that it subsists and
exists and has been held by his family for centuries past, and that it
has been held by him since June 1940. The document bears official stamps
and is annotated as having been registered in the Registry of Deeds on
18 November 1993. The purchaser of the Barony of Carbury received a
grant of arms with supporters from the Office of the Chief Herald in
1998, which dubious practice has of course now been abandoned. Before
commenting further, I will need to devote a fair number of hours to
researching further this purported barony title, and will then report
back, probably during or after the Summer.

Whatever the status of this "barony" (on which I look forward to
reading your conclusions) the registration of the deed neither adds to
nor subtracts from it. Registries of Deeds, which exist in many
places, simply serve as repositories for documents. Registration says
nothing about the validity of claims made in the document, or the
existence or otherwise of the subject-matter it deals with, whatever
credulous purchasers may choose, or be induced, to believe.

And would the latter statements be true of documents entered in the
Scottish Register of Sassines?

Sean Murphy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In reply to Mr. Murphy's first posting and his second paragraph what
he describes seems to be a repeat of the much discredited 'Statutory
Declaration' much used when 'proving' title to English Lordships of
the Manor. Although English by birth I have absolutely no knowledge
of English conveyancing law but it doess seem to me rather a doubtful
method of proving ownership to say "It's mine".

As to Mr. Murphy's second posting the Sasine Register, founded in
1617, is a record of deeds. However, if a deed is recorded on the
register for ten years and concurrently possession of the subjects
takes place then, after the ten year prescriptive period has elapsed,
the title to the subjects becomes unchallengeable {see 1617, Cap. 12.
anent Prescription of heritable Rights and the Prescription and
Limitation (Scotland) Act 1973}. This pre-supposes the subjects
existed in the first place. As an example, if Mr. Murphy recorded a
title to the Barony of Murphy in the Sasine Register, and swanned
about as the baron for ten years, unless there was such a barony Mr.
Murphy's recording would get him nothing.

Scotland's great advantage over most other parts of the world in this
particular subject is our Public Registers. The creation of 'real
rights' as opposed to 'personal rights' to property can only be
created by the recording of the property deed in the register. I
could go on about our wonderful system for reams but for now...

Brian G. Hamilton.


.

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