Re: Armorial register puzzles:

"WILLIAM BALDWIN JR" <wjbaldwin@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:5V6eg.119$GE2.12@xxxxxxxxxxx


"Guy Stair Sainty" <guy@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:e5a4ik0tbi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
In article <OwYdg.123$G82.60@xxxxxxxx>, WILLIAM BALDWIN JR says...

"German nobility" is an abstract concept that can only exist in law.
Otherwise, it is just as "real" as a title granted by the MM or a Lord of
Camster. No one accepts Lord of Camster titles because there is a legal
system refusing to even entertain them. Likewise, the legal system will
not
entertain disputes over adoptees not being "real". Matter of fact, the
legal
system has granted the use of the title, it is being used legally, to the
same extent any other title can be used (or even exist) legally. There is
only one line of argument that adoptees titles are not "real". That
argument
is that none of them are real, either adopted or blood.

German nobility is a concept established in a millenium of law, history,
tradition and custom. It is a factg of European hisotry. Fake titles awarded
by the likes of MM have no basis in this historical context.


But in fact the SMOM does apply the pre-1918 nobiliary regulations in
determining who is or who is not entitled to a noble style in their
diplomas of
admission and in the use of titles by office holders of the Order. The
SMOM does
have a special recognition in Germany, albeit not as sovereign,

SMOM is free to recognize whoever they want as whatever they want. They've
had to make at lot of allowances and special rules to make distinctions as
to who is noble and who is not in countries that legally don't hav esuch
distinctions. they've gone as far as recognizing armigerousness in England
as equating to nobility, (when this is historically and patently
incorrect) since their is no other way to equate to a continental
nobility. (not that I would do it any differently, btw)

Yes. SMOM is free in this regard, but in Europe there is a history of being
in accord with the historical rules and context of European nobility. In
terms of the Enlish rules as far as I know they have required centuries of
armigerousness for Honour and Devotion. This in a European context is a
reasonable equivalent. English concepts equating nobility with peerage is
idiosyncratic in the European context.



Furthermore, as in Austria, there is at least one surviving ancien regime
nobiliary corporation, that of Wurttemberg, which has a long and historic
existence. Similarly, the Roll of the Nobility of Tyrol is recognized as
a legal
corporation in Austria and its insignia can be worn; the members may not
use
their titles,

More private associations recognized by as legal corporations...some
ancient legal corporations in the US have insignia that can be worn on the
uni, too.

Nor did the law and legal decisons allowing adoptess to use noble titles
suddenly "create" 40-50,000 people. Titles are incorporeal and only exist
in
legal systems recognizing them. Their existence is only to the extent the
legal system recognizes them.

They may be recognized by other legal systems. For example, before 1968 a
spaniard who inherited a foreign title could obtain permission to use it
in
Spain and have it incorporated into the register of foreign titles; after
1968
this right continued but on the condition that the successor government
of the
state which awarded it confirmed the title holder was the heir. Italy,
Germany,
Portugal, ect obviously do not do this.

Other legal systems, other rules. Just like the Vatican legal system
recognizing the inheritance thru adoption when it's home jurisdiction
wouldn,t, eh?

;-) ;-)

I don't believe the Vatican has extended a Savoy Italian title to include
adopted sons. I cannot see that the court had jurisdiction or authority. If
a Lousiana parish court extended to someone a French ancien regime title
through an adoptive line would this be valid? Could we say the US legal
system recognized the transmission of French nobility through adoption?
Could we call this a "Ruling Presidential elevation" - no we'd shake our
heads and chuckle that the court had overstepped.



Many private bodies have strict rules, review and adjudicate..*yawn*
..Some
are well regulated and maintain rules, some don't . Doesn't change
whether
they are a *private*, non-goverment body or not. Most of the
"self-styled"
associations have highly detailed rules..but are still private bodies
that
mean as much as any other private body.

Except that the German Nobility Association decision have obtained a
certain
recognition; for example,

(snip of very interesting case where the official legal system made a
decision that concurred with a decision already made by the GNA.) Courts
will sometimes rely on expert testimony in the US, too.

I'm not saying titles don't exist in Germany. My position is that the only
interpretation that can construe them as "limited" or "real" in blood
only, to exclude adoptees, will exclude them all.


Not at all. German nobility *is* governed by its own historical rules.
Membership in an association is not the important factor. A great number of
German nobles are not members of any association - but they are noble by
fact of their birth. The association though is the best arbiter of what is
correct or not - not a Vatican or US court. The Pope alone is the best
arbiter of what is correct in terms of Papal titles. Is it possible to
imagine exceptions to the blood, yes, but this is for the estate to
determine. For example, a child born within a marriage (perhaps biologically
of a different father) and accepted by the husband as his own would be
presumed both legitimate and natural. (maternity has been more certain than
pternity throughout history). The adoption of a father's natural children
might be a good basis. In each case the matter would need to be examined by
the association fo the nobility itself. What others might declare will not
make for acceptance within the group.

Jan raised the important issue that nobility is not the same as titles -
most European nobles are untitled. He also raises the valid point of the
historical existence of the nobility vs. its legal recognition.

Kind regards, George Lucki


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Armorial register puzzles:
    ... No one accepts Lord of Camster titles because there is a legal ... Likewise, the legal system will ... they've gone as far as recognizing armigerousness in England ... since their is no other way to equate to a continental nobility. ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Re: Armorial register puzzles:
    ... Nobility and who doesn't - and would be so also when the Swedish House ... You argue that that abolition of official recognition of noble titles ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Re: de Guise descendants
    ... Thus in our view there are no noble titles to be bought ... >of the nobility, but the nobility continued to exist as a caste even ... "the possession of a formerly titled land cannot confer any nobiliary right to ... the "prince de Guise" is perfectly aware of the material on my web ...
    (alt.talk.royalty)
  • Re: Armorial register puzzles:
    ... the titles of the German "nobility" organization are ... the adoption, but this does not make him a member of the royal house of Anhalt. ...
    (rec.heraldry)
  • Egocentric Fanatics
    ... "final say" in regard to ANYTHING to do with Orders, Nobility and the ... that those who were honoured with the titles he has secured, ... the very ideologies that he claims to protect ...
    (rec.heraldry)