Re: English feudal baronies

The Amiable Buffoon (graham@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) wrote:
Derek Howard wrote:
I will respond to mr. Howard's post in due course.

Please do not feel that it is an obligation to respond to every post of
mine.

GM:
There is nothing
wrong with this of course, except it is clear that if the King summoned
a small number of barons to give COUNSEL and then asked for an
extraordinary aid, their reply would be 'Not on your life, buster, not
without the CONSENT of our peers.' Clearly, the idea of summoning all
the king's tenants in chief was both impractical and inconvenient (but
this is what actually happened in the early days of feudalism e.g. the
entire Frankish nation, at least the male half, used to gather every
March in what is now known as the Champ de Mars (the Field of March)
outside Paris for what was effectively an annual Parliament)

Mr. Howard
'The name means "Field of Mars", from Mars the Roman god of war, because
it was originally used for military training. It was probably named
after the Campus Martius of Rome. Little to do with annual Parliaments
or the Franks! How Milne expects to be taken seriously with such simple
errors abounding I don't know.'

Incorrect Mr. Howard. You should not rely solely on Wikipedia for your
'scholarship'. Let me quote the following from Hallam's 'Middle Ages',
vol. I, p. 212:

'Arbitrary rule, at least in theory, was uncongenial to the character
of the northern nations. Neither the power of making laws, nor that of
applying them to the circumstances of particular cases, was left at the
discretion of the sovereign. The Lombard kings held assemblies every
year at Pavia, where the chief officers of the crown and proprietors of
lands deliberated upon all legislative measures, in the presence, and
nominally at least with the consent, of the multitude. Frequent mention
is made of similar public meetings in France by the historians of the
Merovingian kings, and still more unequivocally by their statutes.
These assemblies have been called the parliaments of the Champ de Mars,
having originally been held in the month of March...'

Are you are refering to Henry Hallam's 'View of the State of Europe
during the Middle Ages', first published 1818? Your quote has
apparently been edited and I wonder what the missing element says. That
Hallam apparently says "have been called " suggests an attempt to put
distance from the statement. By whom and when was it called "the
parliaments of the Champ de Mars" ? What evidence did they cite to say
these assemblies took place in March (a most unlikely month for a
national gathering in early mediaeval travel conditions)? I would have
expected "mars" with a miniscule if referring to the month.

Incidentally, the Champ de Mars in Paris was created in the mid-18th
century as a parade ground where up to 10,000 troops could be
marshalled in battle order next to the Ecole Militaire. (Hence named
from the god of war. Nothing to do with Clovis and Franks who would
have shunned the name of a Roman god after they were baptised
Christian.

How Mr. Howard expects to be taken seriously with such simple errors
abounding I don't know. The point is, of course, that Mr. Howard has a
brain like a squashy over-boiled cabbage whereas mine is a superbly
trained fighting machine, as swift and ruthless as a steel blade!

To be serious, Mr. Howard scoffed at the idea that every
tenant-in-chief had a right to attend the King's Court/Parliament
whereas it is apparent that this was exactly the case and, in fact, in
the early days of feudalism, as I have said, the ENTIRE NATION (at
least the male half) attended annual parliaments.

Evidence of parliaments? Evidence that any entire nation attended? I
think it likely you will find the evidence is thin to the point of
disappearing one way or the other.

It would in any case not have been physically possible to gather
together the "entire nation, at least the male half" as you put it,
whether this is Frankish, Merovingian or Alaman kingdom or other.
Having an assembly though says nothing of the legal limitations on who
qualified or not to vote and therefore nothing whatsoever to do with a
debate on the baronage.

Even in that most democratic of institutions in a really small
population, the Icelandic Althing in the 10th century, not all adult
males turned up, IIRC there is a nice description in Njal's Saga.

This practice
evidently had its origins in a period when the Germanic tribes were
much more compact (remember the famous incident with Clovis Mr.
Howard?)

Well I remember various incidents concerning Clovis but am not sure
which one you refer to or which is relevant to this discussion (or
indeed which Clovis). I can only guess you are trying to make something
of the vase of Soissons but you will need much glue.

and became impossible to follow when these tribes conquered
huge areas (i.e. when they ceased to be tribes and became settled
nations). This gave impetus to a system of reprsentation.

Well, Clovis seems to have started his reign ruling over Belgica
Secunda including the cities of Rheims, Soissons, Châlons-sur-Marne,
Noyon, Arras, Cambrai, Tournai, Senlis, Beauvais, Amiens, Thérouanne,
Boulogne and Laon (Ian Wood, "The Merovingian Kingdoms 450-751", p 41)
so the idea that there was a little compact tribe able to gather was
already outdated in the fifth century. The structure of government of
the Merovingians is given in Wood, 55-71. I would not describe it as
representational.

Derek Howard

.

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