Re: Collecting brass at ranges

On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:57:30 -0700, you wrote:


#The house rules are subordinate to the law. You
#actually had a grasp of that for a second when you agreed with my boiling
#water example.
The house can add
additional conditions beyond the law. Not allowing smoking in my bar
in a state that allows smoking is one example.


#Stealing another person's property is illegal even when it is
#one of the house rules. That is the part I acknowledge that I have
#repeated, because it remains true and you keep avoiding it.
I have not avoided it. The very promise of business dealings requires
that you give property in a business deal.


#Your auto parts example is invalid as a comparison. In that case the
#exchange of a core, along with cash, was not an ancillary part of the basic
#contract with the store. It is actually the primary agreement of the
#contract if you go to the parts store with the stated intention of
#exchanging cash and core for a new part.
What if I go to the store with the stated intention of exchanging cash
for a part and keeping my old one? they take more of other types of
my property.
It's exactly the same concept.

#Secondly, the store does not make
#the decision to TAKE your property. In your car parts example, how about
#if you had just walked in and chose to pay cash and not provide the core,
Then the store takes more of other types of my property. It's my
choice whether or not I want to do business with them.

#(your option in most parts stores) but the employee went out and took the
#old part out of your car because it is store policy that any used cores on
#their property now belong to the store?
If I entered into a legally binding agreement, it would be fine.
Buying an auto part is a legally binding agreement. All the elements
are there. Offer, acceptance, compensation. Instead, the store
keeps some of your other property as collateral to insure you bring
back the core.


#The
#difference is primarily that at the range you are exchanging cash for a set
#number of minutes on the range.
Exchanging cash for something of value. Time on a range, auto part.
Same concept.


#That is the basic primary part of the legal
#contract stated in its simplest terms.
Like the rules of the range posted on the wall, and posted in the
waiver you sign? When you go to the range, you expressly agree to the
conditions.

#Any extraneous rules that either
#party attempts to enforce beyond that must be evaluated on their
#relationship to the primary contract, its intent, and upon the legality of
#the additions.
Like the rules of the range posted on the wall, and posted in the
waiver you sign? When you go to the range, you expressly agree to the
conditions.

#As long as you have paid the proper amount and shoot safely,
#and the range operator provides you with a firing point for the agreed upon
#number of minutes, the contract is satisfied.
If that is the extent of the contract. But what about the additional
terms like the rules of the range posted on the wall, and posted in
the waiver you sign? When you go to the range, you expressly agree to
the conditions.

#Taking your personal
#property, even if it is posted as a house rule, is theft and therefore an
#illegal unenforceable provision being tagged on to the basic contract.
Uh, how do I go to the range, rent space and not give up my personal
property? I suppose you are going to argue the range has to allow you
to go collect your lead as well.

#As to your question about giving up property to do business? Actually,
#technically, you do not give up anything of value.
Bullshit. I give them money, for starters.

#All contracts are based
#upon willing, reasonable, and legal exchange of value, not giving up value.
Value is in the eye of the beholder.

#But, as I stated above, if either party endeavors to enforce any
#unreasonable or illegal conditions to the basic purpose of the contract, it
#is unenforceable.
What's illegal about the provisions of the contract. The brass issue
is one of the terms of the contract.

#
#And last of all, your so very important question that you just have to have
#answered, of what would I do if a customer came to my place of business and
#refused to follow my policies? First of all, I am still getting the sense
#that your question is based upon a false paradigm that all business policies
#are legal and enforceable.
Yep. I can put any legal terms on my contract. They are enforceable.
For example, if I hire a demolition contractor to demolish my barn,
they take title to the barn, and sell it for salvage.


#But, here is my answer: If he refused to obey
#any "LEGAL and reasonable" policy then I would terminate our business
#relationship and ask him to leave.
And what's illegal about me putting as a term of the business
arrangement that all brass that hits the floor becomes mine? Keep in
mind the auto parts and demolition examples. Then provide cites.


#businessman, I would not attempt to enforce any policies that did not meet
#that description as that is not only illegal but very poor business
#practices. What if we disagree on the legality and reasonableness of my
#business policy? (You forgot to ask that.) If I disagreed on whether a
#policy does or does not meet that criteria, I would discuss it with them and
#change my policy if he could convince me it was warranted.
What if he couldn't convince you it was unreasonable, but you both
agreed it was legal? We'll go to the smoking in the bar example. My
state allows smoking in bar. Lets say the bar owner chooses not to
allow smoking. All is good until a smoker comes into the bar and
wants to smoke. The patron tries to convince the bar owner that the
policy is unreasonable but is unsuccessful Now what?

#Riding
#roughshod over customers is bad business and I would risk not only losing
#business, but risking legal consequences. Discussing it with the senior
#management is exactly what was recommended by at least one other responder
#in the newsgroup. A reasonable, and legal, solution is for the range to
#claim all abandoned brass but not interfere with the property rights of
#shooters that retrieve their own brass.
Who are you to tell someone how they should run their business? I'm
not sure if you realize this, but our country was formed on individual
freedoms. Sounds like you want them for you, but no one else.


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