Re: New cards concepts

suleci2@xxxxxxx wrote:
On Nov 7, 2:54 am, "Orpheus" <orpheus...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
There's plenty of reasons not to see more diablerie that involve
there being productive paths towards winning.

???

There are already diablerie winning concepts. Tariq, Theo (with a
Prince) and Muaziz do such things already without the addition of a
card. Aren't we sick of always seeing the same vamps for the same
concepts ? I am.

Mixing concepts here between being able to diablerize and using
diablerie to win. Tariq decks win off of diablerie. Throw in Tyler
with Baltimore Purge as well. I'm not aware of anyone building a Theo
diablerie deck, it's just a tactical option in decks that do other
stuff. Plenty have built Muaziz diablerie decks, yet how many are
actually any good? Far better have been tactical Muaziz diableries in
decks that don't need diablerie to succeed.

All those concepts have been known to win, when weel-dosed and well-played.
Of course Tariq or Tyler have been the more efficient.

Anyway, my point was that the card you are proposing has minimal
impact on the game - sending someone to torpor is already useful and
adding into the card chain for the uberkill is hardly going to
terrorize the tournament scene. Nor does the card really expand the
game much since it's pretty much just going to go into one deck
archetype.

It makes a losing concept (aggropock) potentially efficient in several
decktypes, so I think it changes just what a card should change : an aspect
of the game. A small one. Small changes add up to make big ones without
unbalancing the game.

If tired of seeing the same vamps with the same concepts, I'd look for
broad aids to what sucks. Reasons to go anarch have helped a lot of
underused vampires. Anarch Convert has helped a lot of underused
vampires just by cryptthinning group 1/2 and group 4/5. So,
improvement in this regard is being made. The former was a broad
initiative. The latter is ... interesting - the point of grouping was
to avoid dial-a-crypt, yet the cryptthinners enable numerous decks to
move towards DAC.

Although I agree, this is totally besides the point, as the goal of ACs was
to help a failing concept : Anarchy. Black Hand is still mildly succesful,
and Trophy is ont the whole a failure, so maybe it needs halping, or maybe
just ditching. But that's not the kind of things I'm talking about here.

Something like this was suggested to me this past Summer:
"What do you think I am? A Dominate card??"
Action Modifier/Reaction
c = 1
<cel>: Only usable at the end of a successful action (after
resolving the action). Untap this vampire.
<CEL>: Only usable when you are being bled. Tap this reacting
vampire. Choose another Methuselah other than the controller of the
acting minion. The acting minion is bleeding that Methuselah.

You could also switch the effects. Somehow, I think that might have
a touch more impact on elevating !Gangrel and the game in general.

This is a very, very bad card.

It's a game changing card.

No. It's a "changing the spirit and balance of the game" card.

If the goal is to not change the game,
then, obviously, it's a bad card.

Yes. Why would you want to change the game ? You don't play it as it is ?

If the goal is to rebalance the
game, then effects like these need to be considered as putting out
more junk isn't going to fix any problems.

There is a *big* difference between "rebalancing" and "unbalancing", and we
obviously disagree and what does what and which is which. You think that Dom
deflections are unbalanced, and you say that the solution is to make more in
other disciplines ? It's preposterous to me. Balancing solutions have
alreayd been applied by the LSJ team over the last expansions :
disciplineless bounce, an event to increase the cost of deflections, and
some other toys.

You seemingly want the game to change.

Not to "change", the game is fine in itself and I enjoy playing it ; I just
want more options, more variety. It's very different.

You just don't want the best
stuff to get better*.

Of course I like new good cards ! But if by "better" you mean a power surge
and / or a total change of directions in the game, then no, I don't want
that.

This sort of card will make some best stuff
better, Toreador for instance.

Who don't need other options for redirection.

At the same time, it addresses a lot
of weakness in the game from Brujah to !Gangrel to a host of fatties
who weren't blessed with Dom, AUS, PRE, or strong specials.

Sure. But it is totally against the spirit of the game from the start. It
also goes to say that the clans without redirection are unplayable, which
used to be true, less now. But see, I'd rather see some more inventive
solutions addressing each of the clans or disciplines. I dunno, like pool
gain solutions, _good_ bleed reduction cards (with other options) etc. , but
that stay in the logic of said clans and disciplines.

* Well, actually, based on your card proposals, it looks like you
just want to give the same effects that already exist in a different
form.

Several recent cards are variations on known themes, and still are very good
and bring new things to the game (Dreamworld, Public Trust, and Unholy
Penance bring new things to a discipline which apparently already did it
all, without making it any more unbalanced). We now have more cards to
choose from when making a specific deck, and won't just include Legal Manip
and Majesty without caring about the details of our Pre deck. This is a good
change.

In inferior it's a Freak Drive inf, and as of now Cel doesn't go
that far in untapping. Although it might be frustrating sometimes, I
think it's good not to allow too many vamps to have access to untap.
Maybe another bi-discipline like Forced March (why not with Cel /
Obf ? lol).

Celerity doesn't go far into untapping for no particular reason
whatsoever. It's much more thematic for Celerity to multiact than for
Fortitude. It just so happened that Jyhad put the effect on Fortitude
and not on Celerity. Mistakes are often made with initial sets for
CCGs. Why perpetuate the error?

In superior it's a redirection sup.

Actually, it's an inferior Deflection, which is better. And, yes,
amazingly enough, having copied and pasted the text, I know what the
effects are.

Good, you can read. I think we both knew that already. I'm just pointing out
that it's totally uninventive, and also that you're creating another
uber-card just because you're complaining about such a card existing in the
first place.

As you must know by now, I'm against both the flattening of
disciplines and the raise of the power curve. This does both, and is
plain silly in terms of game balance.

But, see, it's not silly in terms of game balance. What's silly in
terms of game balance is that nothing is done to make Dominate less
dominating.

Sure. But things have been done in recent expansions. Also, Ani interecept
has gone better and better, some rush decks have become efficient too, there
are also some pool gain alternatives... For instance, Assamites and Ravnos
winning decks are based on pool gain and don't include Dom. Of course I'm
not saying you should play those very specific decks, and it also happens
that they lose to big bleeds, but what I'm saying is that individual
solutions can be found and that it's much more interesting for the game than
just creating deflections for every discipline.

What I'd do to fix Dominate isn't going to happen, which
leaves upgrading other things in the game.

Yes. But there are other ways to do it.

Minor effects, overcosted
cards, and whatnot aren't going to cut it.

It's a step, and it works. How much have you tried those ? If the problem in
your local metagame is really bleed, then you should certainly put all those
cards in your non-deflecting decks, and I'm sure they will have some sort of
impact.

Giving Celerity good
bounce (or, preferably, giving all nonweenie decks good bounce) would
be a powerful step towards cutting into the severe discipline
imbalances in the game.

No. It would just also imbalance Cel decks. And then you'd realize that some
decks have no Cel, Aus, Dom or Ani, and you'd have to do another
copy-and-paste of Deflection with another discipline (poor Samedi, let's
make a Deflect in Obf or For !!).

If you don't want to see cards like these, that's fine. But, expect
to continue to see only minor changes in what your opponents play when
all that's being added to the game is what is already possible or what
is inferior to what already exists.

We've add several examples to the contrary recently, and I'm talkin before
KoT previews. My suggestions also go in those directions.

Now, this all assumes that your group plays only what's strong. An
easy? assumption since if the playgroup isn't inclined towards playing
what's strong, then there's tons of unexplored possibilities offered
by the over 3000 cards already in print.

Of course that in a competitive playgroup there are 1000s of unplayed cards.
What else is new ? New players will of course try the "fun" cards even if we
tell'em they're ***, but after a while they get tired of losing and,
without speaking of playing Tier1s, they put some cards where they belong :
in boxes or albums, to gather dust.

As for card ideas that won't blow the power curve, why aren't people
talking about what they want for the next Laibon set? It might
already be too late for all I know, but it was certain too late
months ago to hope for something in KoT, so might as well start
looking far enough forward to where it makes a difference.

Why not. But we had such an expansion not long ago, and I'm not sure
that people would want to buy more cards for those guys right now
(not to mention that their discipline spread limits their options a
lot).

Not long ago meaning over 3 years and at least six expansions between
Laibon sets?

For me the expansions go out way too fast, and there are many things still
not explored enough in old expansions, so yes, it's not that far away.

So, if people don't want to buy more Laibon stuff, what do they want
to buy? Another Imbued set? ;) Actually, I could see a Camarilla
nonbase set to throw some love toward primogen and, um, some other > (in
V:TES, unofficial) offices in the Camarilla hierarchy.

There's a vicious cycle effect that can come into play. Laibon aren't
popular because they are weak, because they aren't popular, they
aren't a good thing to expand, without more goodies they never get
stronger. It's obvious WW doesn't use this approach, otherwise Sword
of Caine and Twilight Rebellion would have supported other mechanics,
so why wouldn't we expect another Laibon set on the horizon?

I'm sure there is one on the horizon somewhere.

If we are going to get one, what specifically are people hoping for?

More choice in vamps, compatible with the previous group.

After all, look at how poorly the Laibon clans fare in the TWDA.

I think their discipline spread and the number of vamps available is
more responsible for it than the quality of clan cards. If we get
non-compatible Laibon it won't solve much, because we don't have
enough vampires to choose from in the first place ; but if we get,
say, 6 more G5 of each clan, then maybe we can start building more
decks.

I agree that their discipline spreads suck, but that would no longer
be the case if the weaker disciplines and nonsynergistic discipline
combos got upgraded to Dominatelike levels.

Abombwe bounce ? Come on, we can do better than that !!

Did you ever see a winning Ravnos vote deck before Eldest Are Kholo ? I
didn't. And now it works. See, at least a winning deck concept came from the
Laibons. I agree it isn't enough, but it certainly works and doesn't incldue
bounce, so that works too.

Obviously, the number of vampires limits playing Laibon clan decks.
That's solved by printing new vampires for Laibon clans.

Agreed.

I'm failing
to see the logic behind putting off printing more Laibon stuff because
Laibon are currently hard to do anything more with.

Trouble is their discipline spread, which won't encourage many sales because
there are much better ones out there :

- Ani / For / Pre isn't very good because to kill / bloat you'll need to
pass Pre bleeds and that Ani by itself usually isn't a big enough detterent
(of course Crows by Dawn can hurt you, but well...). It just doesn't work
very well, and that was obvious from the start.

- Cel / Aus / Pot could actually be good with a better, smaller crypt.

- Abo / Ani / For is mostly a poor substitute for Gangrel disciplines, for 2
obvious reasons : much less choice in crypt, and Abo isn't very good as of
now. So conceivably this could be made better with good new Abo cards. But
still, Gangrel are a more obvious choice, and did I mention that Gangrel
decks aren't that good anyway ?

- Cel / For / Pre is obviously a much harder to play discipline spread than
the Tore disciplines, for bounce reasons.

So to be effective and interesting the Laibon would need, IMO :

- more new compatible vampires (it doesn't fit well with the rarity
background scheme, but then in Africa there may be lots of vamps too, and
they'll be played less than occidental vamps anyway ; and we're talking game
balance here).

- new and better Abombwe cards, possibly including better stealth /
intercept options, and certainly better fight

- new and good Laibon or clan cards, possibly including pool gain or bleed
reductions. I'm sure other inventive solutions can be found.

Barring those improvements I don't see any reason to buy more Laibon.

And see, there are other solutions than just giving bounce to other (every
?) disciplines.
--
Orpheus
--
"Cynicism isn't maturity. Callousness isn't strength. Pretending you
don't care so you don't have to try isn't "winning" What you do with
your life matters."

Luther Manning.


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