Re: New cards concepts

On Nov 7, 2:54 am, "Orpheus" <orpheus...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
There's plenty of reasons not to see more diablerie that involve there
being productive paths towards winning.

???

There are already diablerie winning concepts. Tariq, Theo (with a Prince)
and Muaziz do such things already without the addition of a card. Aren't we
sick of always seeing the same vamps for the same concepts ? I am.

Mixing concepts here between being able to diablerize and using
diablerie to win. Tariq decks win off of diablerie. Throw in Tyler
with Baltimore Purge as well. I'm not aware of anyone building a Theo
diablerie deck, it's just a tactical option in decks that do other
stuff. Plenty have built Muaziz diablerie decks, yet how many are
actually any good? Far better have been tactical Muaziz diableries in
decks that don't need diablerie to succeed.

Anyway, my point was that the card you are proposing has minimal
impact on the game - sending someone to torpor is already useful and
adding into the card chain for the uberkill is hardly going to
terrorize the tournament scene. Nor does the card really expand the
game much since it's pretty much just going to go into one deck
archetype.

If tired of seeing the same vamps with the same concepts, I'd look for
broad aids to what sucks. Reasons to go anarch have helped a lot of
underused vampires. Anarch Convert has helped a lot of underused
vampires just by cryptthinning group 1/2 and group 4/5. So,
improvement in this regard is being made. The former was a broad
initiative. The latter is ... interesting - the point of grouping was
to avoid dial-a-crypt, yet the cryptthinners enable numerous decks to
move towards DAC.

Something like this was suggested to me this past Summer:
"What do you think I am?  A Dominate card??"
Action Modifier/Reaction
c = 1
<cel>:  Only usable at the end of a successful action (after resolving
the action). Untap this vampire.
<CEL>:  Only usable when you are being bled. Tap this reacting
vampire. Choose another Methuselah other than the controller of the
acting minion. The acting minion is bleeding that Methuselah.

You could also switch the effects.  Somehow, I think that might have a
touch more impact on elevating !Gangrel and the game in general.

This is a very, very bad card.

It's a game changing card. If the goal is to not change the game,
then, obviously, it's a bad card. If the goal is to rebalance the
game, then effects like these need to be considered as putting out
more junk isn't going to fix any problems.

You seemingly want the game to change. You just don't want the best
stuff to get better*. This sort of card will make some best stuff
better, Toreador for instance. At the same time, it addresses a lot
of weakness in the game from Brujah to !Gangrel to a host of fatties
who weren't blessed with Dom, AUS, PRE, or strong specials.

* Well, actually, based on your card proposals, it looks like you
just want to give the same effects that already exist in a different
form.


In inferior it's a Freak Drive inf, and as of now Cel doesn't go that far in
untapping. Although it might be frustrating sometimes, I think it's good not
to allow too many vamps to have access to untap. Maybe another bi-discipline
like Forced March (why not with Cel / Obf ? lol).

Celerity doesn't go far into untapping for no particular reason
whatsoever. It's much more thematic for Celerity to multiact than for
Fortitude. It just so happened that Jyhad put the effect on Fortitude
and not on Celerity. Mistakes are often made with initial sets for
CCGs. Why perpetuate the error?

In superior it's a redirection sup.

Actually, it's an inferior Deflection, which is better. And, yes,
amazingly enough, having copied and pasted the text, I know what the
effects are.

As you must know by now, I'm against both the flattening of disciplines and
the raise of the power curve. This does both, and is plain silly in terms of
game balance.

But, see, it's not silly in terms of game balance. What's silly in
terms of game balance is that nothing is done to make Dominate less
dominating. What I'd do to fix Dominate isn't going to happen, which
leaves upgrading other things in the game. Minor effects, overcosted
cards, and whatnot aren't going to cut it. Giving Celerity good
bounce (or, preferably, giving all nonweenie decks good bounce) would
be a powerful step towards cutting into the severe discipline
imbalances in the game.

If you don't want to see cards like these, that's fine. But, expect
to continue to see only minor changes in what your opponents play when
all that's being added to the game is what is already possible or what
is inferior to what already exists.

Now, this all assumes that your group plays only what's strong. An
easy? assumption since if the playgroup isn't inclined towards playing
what's strong, then there's tons of unexplored possibilities offered
by the over 3000 cards already in print.

As for card ideas that won't blow the power curve, why aren't people
talking about what they want for the next Laibon set?  It might
already be too late for all I know, but it was certain too late months
ago to hope for something in KoT, so might as well start looking far
enough forward to where it makes a difference.

Why not. But we had such an expansion not long ago, and I'm not sure that
people would want to buy more cards for those guys right now (not to mention
that their discipline spread limits their options a lot).

Not long ago meaning over 3 years and at least six expansions between
Laibon sets?

So, if people don't want to buy more Laibon stuff, what do they want
to buy? Another Imbued set? ;) Actually, I could see a Camarilla
nonbase set to throw some love toward primogen and, um, some other (in
V:TES, unofficial) offices in the Camarilla hierarchy.

There's a vicious cycle effect that can come into play. Laibon aren't
popular because they are weak, because they aren't popular, they
aren't a good thing to expand, without more goodies they never get
stronger. It's obvious WW doesn't use this approach, otherwise Sword
of Caine and Twilight Rebellion would have supported other mechanics,
so why wouldn't we expect another Laibon set on the horizon?

If we are going to get one, what specifically are people hoping for?

After all, look at how poorly the Laibon clans fare in the TWDA.

I think their discipline spread and the number of vamps available is more
responsible for it than the quality of clan cards. If we get non-compatible
Laibon it won't solve much, because we don't have enough vampires to choose
from in the first place ; but if we get, say, 6 more G5 of each clan, then
maybe we can start building more decks.

I agree that their discipline spreads suck, but that would no longer
be the case if the weaker disciplines and nonsynergistic discipline
combos got upgraded to Dominatelike levels.

Obviously, the number of vampires limits playing Laibon clan decks.
That's solved by printing new vampires for Laibon clans. I'm failing
to see the logic behind putting off printing more Laibon stuff because
Laibon are currently hard to do anything more with.
.

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