Re: Extra VP for Last Man Standing

"Jeff Kuta" <jeff.kuta@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On Oct 1, 4:42 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Jeff Kuta" <jeff.k...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in
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On Oct 1, 4:24 am, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
<nyst...@xxxxxx> wrote in message

news:1191226174.267250.300950@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

So if one or more of your opponents at your table
cause(s) a greater than normal risk of a timeout at your table, it makes it
harder than it should be for your or anyone else to get a game win at your
table. This is a bad thing and should be penalized.

Or you make a positive incentive for finishing the games in a timely
fashion, like giving the Sole Survivor an additional VP for being the
true last man standing. :)

That's not the same thing, and its contribution towards resolving
games would be questionable.

Sure, but any contribution of anything towards any other thing is
questionable.

The point is, they're not the same things.

An extra victory point for being the last man
standing is an incentive towards being the last man standing - only.

Last man standing only occurs when a game-ending situation occurs for
a single Methuselah.

I understand that. It also only occurs for a given player when he
survives.

Thus is incentivizes ending games.

More correctly, for a given player it incetivizes the union of ending
games AND being the surviving player. The latter is a goal that will
tend to interfere with the former.

This doesn't necessarily reward taking risks that well since
an ousted player would never receive the bonus.

It is supposed to reward completing games. Risky behavior may be
encouraged as a side effect.

So is conservative behavior. The overall effect would be murky, IME.
There is already plenty of incentive to be the last man standing.

Likewise, a conservative
player might be in just as good a position as an aggressive player because,
although he is at disadvantage in that his play will frequently prevent
games from resolving, his play will tend to insure he will be around until
the end so when one _does_ resolve, he has a better than average chance of
being the one who receives the bonus. This is at least a somewhat
compensating advantage.

Sure, and this is a fine thing as well. It almost sounds like you want
to reward a conservative player, which is kind of what nyst's system
does.

I'm not sure what you mean by suggesting that, "(I) want to reward a
conservative player." I want no such thing. I was just evaluating what
I thought the effects would be of implementing your proposal.

The current system, which just flat out penalizes play that makes it
harder to resolve games, is the better way - albeit still admittedly
flawed.

I think that most players, when faced with a situation where everyone
can be penalized by losing a half VP will take that choice rather than
risk losing it all and being ousted.

Agreed. That seems intuitive and I see it in actual play, as well.
(And I do exactly that, myself.)

Misery loves company. Somehow it
seems more fair when everyone gets the same penalty and no one gets
the bonus. There is lots of psychology to support this point of view.
I think this pessimistic mindset is built into the tournament scoring
system and discourages games from going to their full conclusion.

Well, that's true - but you're forgetting the main issue here: the game
itself frequently tends to lead to these results. If you think about
the mechanics of Jyhad, the cards in the game, and the gameplay you've
experienced, you will notice that many conservative, building-up type
strategies tend to get rewarded better than aggressive, go-for-broke
type strategies. This gets heavily reinforced by the multiplayer
nature of the game which will inevitably punish players who do well
early (or, more accurately, players who _appear_ to do well early) and
rewards players who appear to be near death early on.

The upshot is that the conservative mindset is not necessary, not an
artifact of the scoring system for the most part, and not really
solvable by modifying the scoring system for the most part. I think
the half-point penalty and penalizing of the table its game win if
the table doesn't resolve are good things which grate away at players
who depend too heavily on conservative strategies. But ultimately,
any real solution to the problem would have to involve changing the
game through new cards that reward aggressive play better than it is
currently rewarded.

I
tend to think of the scoring system for World Cup soccer which used to
only award 2 points for a victory and 1 for a tie and made for some
really boring games. There is a positive incentive now with 3 points
for a victory and teams will fight for those wins.

Good analogy. And I think you have the same issue: Soccer is an
incredibly conservative game. The only player on the field with the
huge advantage of using his hands is the GOALIE for Christ's sake!!!
And, while you can tinker with the metagame scoring system to encourage
aggressive play a little bit but in the end, only changes in the on-field
rules will make much difference. Until then, I'll continue to use
soccer broadcasts for their correct and only real purpose: as sleep aids.

Adding the bonus VP for Last Man Standing is an attempt to address
this and encourage players to finish games entirely. It has another
small side effect of closing the gap between the worth of 4- and 5-
player tables since there are 5 and 6 VPs at stake instead of 4 and 5.
I don't think it would encourage walls to become the last man standing
because you only earn the VP if the table reaches its conclusion.

We'll have disagree about that. Your refusal to acknowledge the other
part of your incentive (the requirement of survival to qualify for your
bonus) is creating a flaw in your evaluation of its effects, IMHO.

Fred


.

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