Re: Madness Network + Rotschreck is too good!

James Coupe wrote:
In message <1142777078.568643.26240@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Ector
<Ector@xxxxxxx> writes:
You may be an expert, but you cannot imagine the real situation :)

If we cannot imagine the real situation, you haven't explained it well
enough. If you have, we can.
Well, I'll try if you really like to know. Actually, I don't like
describing the situation in details, since the poverty isn't a pleasant
thing to show. But you're welcome, I really can describe anything to
you - provided that you'll won't behave like Derek Ray with his filthy
insults.

Believe it or not, but I'm one of the few "VTES authorities" here in
Minsk and overall in Belarus,

I can only hope that you don't piss and moan as much at your players as
you do here. :-(
No, they don't "piss and moan" at all. On the contrary, they *enjoy*
things like MN+Rot. And most of them are children that didn't get
accustomed to the "play-to-win" phylosophy. Your argument that MN+Rot
isn't broken since it doesn't win games may be nothing to some of them,
since they prefer to perform an "amazing play" (as they see it) and
lose than win with a regular but "dull" deck.
A typical scenario is going to be like this:

1). I assist a novice in building a combat-heavy deck using cards from
a couple of starters he purchased, help him to get some extra cards and
so on. Since we're isolated, popular combat cards are nearly impossible
to find here, and I'm forced to advice him to use large vampires
(Enkidu, Xaviar, Lazverinus and so on). Their abilities can somewhat
"replace" the lacking cards.
2). The novice meets the MN + Rot combo and loses his primary vampire,
with all the retainers, equipment and masters. Obviously, he feels
extremely frustrated AND amazed. Should I even explain him the
importance of DotB, this wouldn't affect his impression much - after
all, combat deck can't afford to keep DotB in hand "just in case",
superior Disguised Weapon can equip the aggro weapon when it's too late
to play DotB, and there can be Protean-based cards. As I said, IGs are
simply unavailable.
3). At this time the newbie can just stop playing the "unbalanced"
game. Or just stop playing until he gets a different deck (which
usually takes a several months here). Aren't all games supposed to
provide some fun?
But this isn't the worst outcome. The worst reaction is: "I WANT TO
PLAY THIS MYSELF!" Surely, getting Madness Networks is very difficult
here, but the newbie can just build a Malkavian intercept deck with
aggro weapons and Rotschrecks and use the benefit of another's MN. You
can easily imagine the metagame where 1/3 of decks are Malks with aggro
weapons - burning MN would be nearly impossible, almost all actions
would be performed on the other players' turns, and so on.
Do you really think that I should just sit patiently until this comes?


All the cards I was "ranting" about made my "missionary" work here much
more difficult. Bowl of Convergence, Anima Gathering and, especially,
Valerius Major (adv) are extremely good in stopping stealth-bleed,

Now, why do you think that might be? Do you think it might be that
stealth-bleed is already a very powerful strategy, and that it might be
considered a Good Thing to provide extra defences against it. Not ones
that make it unplayable - stealth bleed is hardly unplayable - but ones
that give a variety of decks the ability to compete with it more
equally.
I've already admitted that I don't consider these cards "broken" or
"overpowered", at least now. I've just explained the reasons of my
previous behaviour at the newsgroup.

You know how you stamp and whine about Madness Network and Rotschreck
being over-powered? Lots of people have had similar thoughts about a
number of very straight-forward stealth-bleed strategies. Now, unlike
your pissing and moaning, such issues have been replicated across a wide
variety of play-groups worldwide. So the design team have taken steps
to address such issues - by empowering other strategies, and giving them
greater defensive options. Weenies are another strategy for which a
large number of cards have been printed.


So, somehow, you think that toning down Madness Network and Rotschreck
would be just fine, but toning down another strategy that is commonly
perceived as very strong makes "missionary" work harder. Bull***.
Utter bull***.
Please read the explanation a few lines above. I really can't stop the
wave of MN+Rot madness unless the Rot get fixed. This is a real
nightmare for me.

If tinkering with one powerful strategy is so necessary for the game
that you have to cry a river all over the newsgroup, why are other
powerful strategies immune from tinkering? Oh yes, that would be
because you play one of them and got owned by the other.

Powerful strategy that beats Ector = okay to be tinkered with.
Powerful strategy that Ector plays = never touch oh no never never never
that would kill the game and make "missionary" work harder!

Urrr....
Borrowing your word, this is a "bull***". Should this be true, I'd cry
about Sensory Deprivation and similar cards, but did I? You already
have the true reasons of my behaviour, so why do you invent such
things? I never lie, but if you think that I am lying, why do you waste
your time?


especially the newbish variants that are popular here. What can I
answer to a newbie with an Obf-based S&B when he wonders about the ways
to beat Valerius? "Sometimes you lose" would be a right answer, but I
won't say that.

Actually, a far better response would be to give him useful advice. For
example, what can Valerius Major do when you throw down a Pentex
Subversion on him? Hold it for a couple of turns (if necessary), build
up a few solid bleeds, play it, and force a few bleeds through.

Pentex Subversion is always, and has always been, a potentially strong
card for any deck worried about specific minions. It would even work
against an Auspex Prince holding a Bowl of Convergence. Imagine that!
Yes, I know this. But we never had Dark Sovereigns or Setite starters,
so we have no Pentex Subversions.

Additionally, let's say they're playing [1/2] Malkavians, or Obfuscate
Ventrue (found in Camarilla Edition in accessible ways). You know they
get Dominate, right? And that Dominate gives you Seduction? And that
Seduction lets you stop a vampire blocking before they ever get the
chance? And that Seduction is a top-tier card in many, many respects,
and worthy of inclusion in a wide variety of Dominate decks, so they can
sneak past a pesky blocker, or ensure that the block combat is against a
minion they (think they) can handle? Right?
Dementation-based decks are much more popular here, since they can be
built using Malkavian starters. And Kindred Spirits makes the deal with
your prey possible, since you can bleed anyone. Dominate-based decks
are rare, since 1st group Malks were available only in 10th
Anniversary, and it wasn't very popular here.
Seduction is really a good card, but how many copies can you put into a
S&B deck? Generally, you rely on your stealth cards, which are disabled
by Valerius. After all, we won't get Giovanni block denial anyway :)

Or that an Obfuscate stealth-bleed deck can throw out a clutch of
Embraces and swarm the prey?
Embraces? That Camarilla rares that are usually impossible to find even
at The Lasombra's store? Not available to our newbies, sorry.

Or that they can include offensive or defensive combat options until
they can get rid of Valerius? Malkavians with Ivory Bows or Deer Rifles
can make tip-top bleeders.
Ivory Bow is good, but I'd bet that Valerius deck has more Concordances
that the Malkavian deck has Ivory Bows :) Deer Rifle? Unfortunately,
I'm unable to get the idea of it. Did you mean "Assault Rifle"?

Or that, it being a multi-player game with entirely intentional
diplomatic elements to the game, they can negotiate with other decks on
the table? And that if they can't, there's a whole host of interesting
options they can put in the deck that would give them negotiation
fodder.
They are newbies! Yes, they can cry for help, but would anyone help a
S&B to oust his prey? They should really offer a lot for this. Maybe,
some Trophies. But they need to find them first.

Or that they could include a side-line of offensive combat, and whack
Valerius Major one with a Hidden Lurker when plausible? And he can't
strike the first round (Hidden Lurker's text) and he can't stop a
Disguised Weapon-Ivory Bow with Thoughts Betrayed, which doesn't leave
him with that many options.
Really? Concordance is a "must have" card in any Valerius deck, and
he's going to get it prior to the Disguised Weapon + Ivory Bow combo,
unless you're going to turn a S&B deck into some form of "bruise &
bleed" deck :) With Concordance, he will just take 1R damage, press to
continue and play Walk of Flame or Conflagration :)

Another point would be to remind the player that an active, aggressive
stealth-bleed deck will look like the threat on a table. As a result,
if they get a combative prey, they'll very often go backwards to
annihilate much of their predator (hopefully leaving him tangled up with
his predator in a block/survive situation, due to limited numbers of
vampires out), and that this aggression is commonly thrown at stealth-
bleeders. So even ignoring Valerius Major, you'll quite often get into
combat, whether active, block or reactive, so having a sideline of
combat defence or offence is a great move here.
S&B decks may have some maneuvers and dodges, but I don't think that a
lot of combat cards may be appropriate here. Kite or Persia with Ivory
Bow may serve as situational blockers, but the deck can "annihilate
their predator" only with Kindred Spirits. Unfortuanely, sometimes the
newbies keep "annihilating" until they get a new predator :( Especially
when they stumble on Valerius: "I can't bleed him, so I will bleed
someone else".

Perhaps the deck, say a stealth-bleed deck featuring Dementation, could
be packing a handful of Primal Instincts and Dodge. Once you know that
you can survive the strike (or not), you throw down Primal Instincts and
Coma. A lot of blood, but hardly unfindable.
How much is "a handful"? Stealth-bleed deck cannot have a lot of combat
cards. Coma is really good if you manage to stay at close distance, but
it's usually a "fear card", so you won't like to put more than 2
copies.
Having few Trophies, in hope of rewarding for killing Valerius, sounds
much better for me. You may even play a Trophy and ask the Valerius
player: "Would you deal with me now?" But, actually, all these cards
are hardly "the solutions"; Valerius just shuts down Obfuscate-based
decks, as he was intended to.

Or for the Dementation users again, you point out that there are an
interesting number of Obfuscate defences these days and that it might be
worth diversifying into Dementation stealth (Confusion or Mind Tricks,
say) or, in the right deck, perhaps an Enchanted Marionette. Dominate
has similar responses - Bonding, Dominate Kine.

Or perhaps you point out Valerius Major (Adv)'s card text, which only
restricts the /acting/ minion. And Obfuscate has several of the best
cards for this in the game! Mask of a Thousand Faces is played by the
non-acting minion, and at superior it can be used to get +1 stealth
already by that minion - but they're not the acting minion when they
play it, so it's all good. Cloak the Gathering can be played at
superior by non-acting minions to give the acting minion +1 stealth, and
is one of the finest cards Obfuscate has. Both cards are significant
cards for Obfuscate decks, and it's very often a case that a deck should
be justifying why it /doesn't/ have them rather than why it should
include them. They both offer massive flexibility to an Obfuscate
crypt.
All the advices are reasonable, but the Valerius players usually tool
him with some permanent intercept like Phased Motion Sensor, Sport
Bike, Anima Gathering or, you know, the Bowl. As long as Valerius is
going to hose stealth modifiers, getting at least +1 intercept for him
is just an obvious goal, at least for me - he would be able to block +1
stealth actions without additional cards.

Night Moves is a strong card, in the right hands. Worried about the
Valerius deck keeping the Edge? Not at +6 stealth you're not. And for
1 bleed, it can be a responsible deck and not worry too much about it
going to its prey.
Yes, you are completely right. I'm really ashamed for telling this, but
our newbies are unable to find the needed number of Night Moves (at
least 15-20, I presume). How many boxes of Camarilla boosters must be
opened to find them? And Nosferatu starters aren't too popular here.
But I will try to popularize this type of decks here.

Setite Obfuscate Presence bleed has the under-used (but potentially
usable) Form of the Serpent. It also has Opium Den which can be used to
(try to) push a particular action through, with careful planning. (The
similar card for the Malkavians, Forest of Shadows, sadly benefits from
truly awful WotC design. Oh well.)

So why aren't you suggesting any of this?
For the same reason. I'm playing the game for only 1.5 years myself,
and our playgroup never had Setite starters (and +1 stealth wouldn't
normally be enough anyway). And even my newbies know that Forest of
Shadows is extremely bad, though it may really help against the
equipped Valerius... at least once :)



I would say something like "you can deal with the
Valerius player or with another player to kill Valerius". And I would
hope to avoid the next question "what if nobody will deal with me?"

Then you build a flexible deck that won't get killed if one leg of it is
pulled out from under it.

Flexible doesn't mean unfocused - it doesn't mean "toolbox". It simply
means providing yourself with a range of options to accomplish the goal
you have. It /could/ be toolboxy, but you could also be providing
yourself with stealth from a range of sources, and a combat defence
sideline which is set up to allow you to equip (if possible) or
Disguised Weapon in combat (if not) giving you double the opportunity to
play the card, hoping that one or the other option will be available to
you!
I tried this approach when a was a "fresh newbie" myself, but never
succeeded. Stealth-bleed decks should be fast, and they simply can't
afford having a lot of non-stealth and non-bleed cards. To rely on the
weapons, you should use, say 6 Disguised Weapons + six weapons, but
they won't provide much protection against a heavy rush deck, which is
the most dangerous.
Besides that, Disguised Weapons cannot be played against Valerius if he
tried to block the action...

The
game mechanics should avoid situations where players must play without
any hope, unable even to concede - but it seems that such situations
are quite frequent now.

If you build bad decks, you will find yourself in situations without any
hope.

Any player who throws their hands up in despair at Valerius Major (Adv)
and says "I can't play any Obfuscate in my deck against this vampire!"
is either a sub-standard player or has a sub-standard deck.
Do I pretend that "we are the champions" or that we play champion decks
here? Obviously, we're just newbies that play crappy decks, cannot find
even the common cards, and most of us (including me, alas) would never
become good players. Now what? We still want to play and grow,
preferably without too serious frustrations.


Looks like I'm completely exhausted. Hope that I won't get a new
portion of advices like "play DI" (which is almost impossible to find
for a newbie)

It depends on what effort the newbie is willing to put in. Bear in mind
that no-one is saying you have to have 30 of these in a deck.

Why not let the newbie proxy the cards in casual games, to see if they
want to go to the effort of collecting some, or trading for them?
We use proxies regularly, but people just don't want to proxy cards
that they will never get. Who is going to trade them? We are completely
isolated. Even our best players don't have DIs!

Or how about a nice constructive thread of "Hey, I started playing at
*insert set* and in my part of the world, we can't find much of X, Y and
Z, and A, B and C seem to be out of print. This is making it hard for
me and my group to find our Top Ten Cards. These are..." and then list
off the cards you'd really like to see re-printed in the new Sabbat base
set. You know, it could easily give LSJ ideas of what cards people want
to see reprinted, what cards would be beneficial, and exposure to a
point of view from a part of the world he doesn't visit.

Crying out for War Ghouls? Direct Intervention? Dreams of the Sphinx?
Want to see if LSJ can work one or two into the set, and maybe a fixed
copy or two in some of starters for the base set?

Hey now, that would be constructive, useful and might actually stand a
chance of getting something done!
It's hard to admit that, but most of our players can't afford buying
2-3 copies of starter X just to get 2-3 copies of card Y. Reprinting DI
would be a great idea, really. Dreams of the Sphinx already was
reprinted, and we were extremely happy to get it!
But why do you think that fixing some cards isn't "constructive"???
IMHO, it really is. There are things that can be fixed relatively
painlessly - nobody would cry that he *NEEDS* to burn 9-11 caps with
his PTO or he terribly wants to play his favorite Malk OOT Rush (after
all, a lot of people convinced me that it's unstable anyway). There are
obvious advantages, and no disadvantages, AFAIK. So why not?
I can swear that MOST new playgroups in distant and poor countries
would face the same problems as our playgroup. People tend to purchase
only starters, strong old cards are almost impossible to find, and if
anyone tries to tell them "You may use cards X, Y or Z against card A"
the cards must be cheap and available even in such communities (best of
all in starters), or you may just say "the card A is unbeatable for
you". I can understand that such small communities don't mean much, but
they may grow or disappear, depending on the support.
And yes, I really think that cards causing serious problems even in
such communities should be changed, as long as the changes won't
seriously affect the "big" metagame. This would be the best support I
can imagine.


or "burn MN" (should I tell a player that he *must*
concentrate on burning MN since its owner CAN have Rotschreck?) Hope
that I won't have to answer "why the Gods aren't responding" again.

Consider that most players - save for erratic or poor players, generally
- do not put cards into a deck for no reason. So the Madness Network is
in the deck for a reason. This is easy to understand.

What strategies does Madness Network enable? There are two main ones,
and a third less major one (but that's a pain in the arse when it
happens).

1) Madness Network - Rotschreck.
2) Bleeding out of turn.
2a) Untapping around the table using e.g. Carrion Coffin,
Homunculus, Freak Drive, and bleeding each turn.
2b) Normal bleeds, but thwarting a metagame choice towards
Archon Investigation. It can still get bounced, but
it's hoping that it won't get burned.
3) Reversal of Fortunes. There's a trick deck involving repeated
Reversal of Fortunes, to get many turns. It's a pain, but has
many of its own problems.


Now, it's very likely you don't want either 1) or 2a) to take off. 2b)
is also a pain, and even if it is the case that you /don't/ have Archon
Investigation, you very likely don't want a player to know that. (Like,
you're not going to say "Nah, I'm just going to let you have that, I
don't have any Archon Investigation to play.")

There's also a minor fourth option - they want to leave bleeding you
until the end of their predator's turn, so they can leave all their
minions untapped (to deal with their predator), and then unload
everything they have on you. So let's list that as well.

4) Wait and see. Then use all your untapped vampires to bleed your
prey, since you know your predator can't do anything more.

4) is unlikely to appeal to the predator, so you can negotiate with them
to get it burned too, and it's a bad thing for you anyway. Having a
deck that can unload everything it's got on you each turn isn't a good
idea. Note that if it discovers you're out of intercept or bounce or
whatever, it can then untap and oust you. THIS ISN'T A GOOD THING.
Let's upgrade 4 to "less common, but not minor".

So, 1, 2a and 4 are probably really bad for you. 2b, you may not want
to give away anything regarding. And 3 is a real pain in the ass if it
happens, denying you a turn, so you probably do want to burn it.


So, if you sit down next to a bad player who can't use a Madness Network
effectively then sure, don't burn it. But which of the strategies above
are you happy to see enabled if you get an average or better player
doing them?


That's why you burn the Madness Network. Not because it can be used
with Rotschreck, but because the tactics and strategies it enables are
not good for you. It's a nicely balanced card, though, in that it's got
a built in burn. But it's very nicely designed. It's so easy to
overlook, it's so easy to be drawn in to thinking "Oh, I'll just leave
it for now. If it gets to be a problem, I'll do something about it
then." By that point, though, the deck has crafted its defences to
protect the Madness Network - or drawn a second, to replace it if you
burn the first one.

It's oh-so-innocent to start with. It's exactly the sort of card that
will separate a good player from a less good player. A good player will
understand the implications of it the moment it hits the table. Just
like a good player would understand the implications of Anarch Revolt
hitting the table, whereas poorer players would leave it lying there, to
come and eat them.


Up your game. Get better. See Madness Network for the problem it is,
and help people to get rid of it. Even if it doesn't affect you right
now, start negotiating with people to get rid of it. They'll see just
how much extra longevity they get and in the bargain, you'll get kudos
for helping them. Which you can then trade back for assistance when you
need it. This is a win-win situation.

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
First of all: thanks a lot for your time and your efforts in explaining
me all this! I will try to share your ideas with my players, and this
may help, but I don't believe in it.
A player should spend an action (or several actions) to burn MN, and he
should risk losing his minions. Also he's going to lose any chances of
dealing with MN player.
And the MN player would definitely try to deal with them and protect
his MN. Who would go against the stream?
Here is the most typical situation:

Player A: I'm going to burn the crosstable MN.
Player B (the MN player) But why? Does it bother you?
Player A: But you may rush me and play Rotschreck!
Player B: I don't have any rush cards in my deck! Let's make a deal: I
won't rush you, and you won't burn my MN!

Similarly, he may have no Homunculae or other ways of untapping. He may
even pretend to use MN only as a pool gain (with Victoria), and burning
it may leave him defenseless against his predator. And this may be
true!
BTW, don't you think that restricting Rotshreck to acting vampires
would make MN much less dangerous, and the card would actually become
MORE playable, since the experienced players won't burn it on sight?
According to your explanation, the card must be almost unplayable now,
if the players really think this way.

Thanks a lot for your response! I'm really glad to know that somebody
is still able to discuss the topic.

Yours,
Ector

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