Re: -Crawl- YASD MDHu (pure missile weapons character)


Erik Piper wrote:
> roy axenov wrote:
>> Erik Piper wrote:
>>> roy axenov wrote:
>> Give me a big,
>> tough character that can just *whack* everything in his
>> way, that's okay with me,
>
> Hmmm... y'might wanna try to beat me to the first
> Cj-OgFi or Cj-OgBe asension then. :-) (They do lots of
> whacking once you find something better than that
> starting club... even long after you start diverting the
> generated XP into spell skills, you spend most of your
> time whacking.)

It shames me to admit it, but I don't get Ogres. They look
good (ok, "decent") on paper, and I've played quite a few
OgFi/OgBe/OMFE/OMIE/OMTr, but they just don't work for me
for some reason I can't put my finger on. So, hardly. :-)

>>>> , and I'm now convinced that it's actually *doable*.
>>>
>>> I'm getting a similar feeling, although it's not utter
>>> conviction yet -- Vault:8, for example, will be an
>>> utter *nightmare*, and about the
>>
>> I absolutely agree on this. That's why I talked about
>> Slimes & Jellies cooperating to provide a rune. I just
>> can't imagine an archer surviving the entrance and the
>> SE vault.
>
> I *think* I can, and that I'll try it. Keep in mind
> that, for whatever crazy reason, TC *is* allowed on V:8,
> and there's a corridor very close to the stair-hexagon
> to the northwest. Alternatively, you could just

It's hardly a good corridor to work with, IMHO. Especially
once all those monsters in the vault start coming out and
attacking you from the other side...

> have *crazy* defense and maybe even boost your HP by
> berserking, and lure them up several at a time. If not
> worshipping a goody-two-shoes

Hmmm, you'd need three or four ?oBlinking and !oBerserk.
Okay, maybe with a right set of artifacts... You'd need
evokable Blink and Berserk, =oTC and "oRS to make this
work...

> god, you could limit the number of guards that can
> approach you at a time using one of the allowed sources
> of summons (box of beasts, since they're exhaustible,
> decks of cards... what else?). I'm sure there are other
> tricks that could help too.

?oSummoning. Would be a good idea to stash them just for
this occasion.

>> High priests? Various demonologists?
>
> Mere DE Mages can also do it. Don't know about the folks
> mentioned above.

D'oh. Didn't know that. Perhaps I should be little more
cautious in the Halls, and don't let too many of those in
my LOS.

>> Anyway, a
>> trip to Abyss seems more like really, *really* bad luck
>> to me, and let's face it, the RNG can *always* kill you
>> if it decides to work in that direction.
>
> Being trap-banished isn't bad luck, it's lack of
> foresight. Fortunately, a little T&D skill is hardly a
> waste of XP for a pure archer. ;-)

Exactly, being trap-banished or distortion-banished is
usually because you Did Something Wrong. Being banished by
a monster is the only type of banishment that more or less
fits into the "well, that's RNG for you!" category.

>>>> I do not imply that *I* could do it,
>>>
>>> Twice-YAVP'ed? Why not?
>>
>> Yeah, with the easiest race/class/deity combos out
>> there. And chickened out on all those hellish places
>> that comprise the extended endgame.
>
> Easy because you found what makes them easy, which is an
> art unto itself, at least with the Ghoul. Not everyone
> finds Ghouls easy. (Not that I want to get into that
> discussion... I'm not even competent to participate in
> it, as I probably will never play a Ghoul until 4.1.x
> becomes playable and I can do a GhWa.) I similarly found
> a bevoking

Aw, c'mon, after DEBe and OgCj GhWa should be easy even in
b26! :-)

> KoAs to be embarassingly easy, but I'll take a break
> from false humility here and say that part of the
> challenge was discovering that particular route through
> the game.

*shudder* I bet you just haven't tried all those easy and
obvious routes - such as GhFi, TrBe or HD Bervoker. :-P

> (I also find the word "embarassing" to be embarassing,
> because despite being a good speller overall, I'm always
> unsure if the mnemonic is "I'm embarassed by my bar-e
> ass" or "I'm embarrassed by misspelling my barr-e ass."
> But I think the origin is French, which makes me leans
> towards a single r.)

I feel embarassed by the fact that some people worry about
stuff like that while I cheerfully blunder my way through.
Guess that has something to do with my affinity towards
"me stupid but me tough" characters.

> [replacing Vault rune with Jelly rune]
>> Perhaps it's kinda stupid, but with a MDHu I would
>> prefer to wander the Abyss in hopes of finding the
>> abyssal rune instead of tackling Vault:8.
>
> Dunno about that... IMO running a long time without
> fighting in the Abyss is overrated, with all due respect
> to Mark Mackey (whose writings are, overall, words of
> great wisdom). Get a couple smoke demons -- the "4s who
> hurt like 2s" -- on your tail and you're toast. A
> smiting here, a sticky flame there, a forced melee round
> in the other place, WHAM. I might try it with a
> Spriggan, but that's about it.

Oh, sure. It's just that I really hate Vault:8. The place
is so... painful. On the other hand, Abyss (as much as I
hate being banished) can seem almost pacific at times.

> [dilution]
>> You know, with MDHu it seems to be viable. My current
>> MDHu experiences even more skill dilution than this
>> character, with several levels in all of secondary
>> missile skills. Still at Throwing 6, Crossbows 6 and
>> using my +1,+4 crossbow he can take out even tougher
>> monsters *fast*. Now that I've started encountering
>> bolt traps I'll try to go more or less pure Crossbows,
>> and anyway, those few levels in missile skills are not
>> *that* expensive, and certainly are *that* useful.
>
> In other words, a little dilution for *lots* of
> convenience.

Exactly.

> BTW if you want some of the power of a strategy that
> incorporates Throwing without the inconvenience,
> consider thrown rocks. You lose the

I tried that, but found the results utterly dissatisfying.
*Way* too many misses, and too much ammo lost for little
to no return.

> chance to use slings, but the point of them is to
> utilize more ammo anyway... you still utilize it this
> way, just slightly less effectively (and you can weaken
> the pain by picking and choosing who to use rocks on --
> i.e. only the less-armoured stuff). Put the rocks on 't'
> or 'T' and they become really comfortable to throw.

The good thing about slings is that they seem to be
relatively common, and you can almost always find one in
the first few levels, surviving on darts till that point.
Once you get a sling, you should be more or less okay
until you encounter your first centaur and borrow his bow.
Well, that's my current strategy anyway. This leads to a
lot of dilution, but also gives a lot of options. I like
options. Heck, even *trolls* like options. Anything with
at least two cents worth of self-preservation instinct
likes options in Crawl.

>> *After* you came up with the challenge I tried a DEAs,
>> and he did seem to be insanely powerful in the
>> beginning, but I was really worried about lasting
>> power. (YASD'ed eventually before running into problems
>> with killing Tough Stuff.)
>
> Tried a couple, died in part due to lack of heart (have
> a DEBe and hoping for a win from a parked DEFE), seemed
> pretty impressive. Dunno.

The problem with all those races is that they're so
friggin' *frail*. Dwarves and Centaurs, on the other
hand...

>> Also tried several CeHu, but
>> didn't like them. Food problems are bad enough alone,
>> and limited equipment really turns me off of them.
>
> I think the trouble with Centaurs is that they were
> overpowerful when first introduced, got toned down after
> that, and never recovered from it. (Lucky nobody ever
> called Spr1gg4ns 0verp0wered, even though they kinda
> are.) "Hungry like a horse" OK, horse-themed armour
> restrictions OK, but those two things are plenty enough
> to balance out the permaswiftness and missile bonuses;
> the other disadvantage -- aptitude penalties that leave
> them with no good defense mechanism whatsoever and
> unthemefully bad at magic -- are over the top, at least
> until missiles are rebalanced to better compete with
> melee/conjurations.

You know, I'm not sure I agree with that. I've played
quite a few pure archers now, and I'm no longer certain
missile weapons were nerfed *too* much. Sure, it takes way
more cunning to make a full use of their potential, and
they're obviously less powerful than melee/conjurations,
but maybe that's as it should be... I mean, we don't want
ADOM-style archers that can porcupinize a roomful of
monster in a blink of an eye, do we?

>> Okay, so
>> their aptitudes with missile weapons are bloody
>> impressive, but they start with a *bow*, and they
>> really suck at everything else anyway.
>
> Bows are great after DL7 or so. But you can't really
> reach DL7 on the basis of a bow.

Still not up to crossbows even there IME.

>> of their outlook is crazy impressive. Crossbow alone is
>> well worth it.
>
> Aye, the accuracy and penetrating power are well worth
> the slowness. It's what attracts me to the DEAs's so
> strongly... I imagine them being crazy powerful once
> they hit their first crossbow. Granted this may mean
> reaching D:15 or so without it, but that's what
> throwing, blowguns, and escape magic are for.

Yeah, reaching D:15 and taking out your first yaktaur pack
using those ridiculous poisoned darts... Or wands, more
likely.

>> Being able to use all armour is
>> probably a minor point, but still a good thing to have.
>
> It's a *big* point, really, but I'm willing to give it
> up in order to avoid melee range. :-)

Not worth it, not for me. Sure I like speed as much as the
next person, but a good set of armour also helps a lot
with all sorts of ranged attacks... that are pretty much
unavoidable later in the game even if you manage to stay
out of melee range all the time.

> Still, the real problem I have with Okie is that Might
> is situational, Healing is weak, melee weapons are
> usually unhelpful in this challenge, armour gifts are
> often brain-dead, and Haste is really expensive. (Says
> the fellow who's won with two Okawarites, one of them a
> hunter.)

Granted, but I think I'll still stick to Okie. I'm
reserving Ely for my HuMo's. :-)

> Hmmm... wonder how a Mummy Assassin who scummed Okie's
> revenge for the little batches of monsters he sends at
> you would do? (Now that's just eeeevil.)

Gah!

> They do make Mummy Assassins, right?

Unfortunately, they do!

I wonder if I should try it... Nah, scumming of any sort
tends to kill me real fast these days.

>>>> B - a +0 dwarven buckler (worn)
>>>>
>>>>> I was very surprised it worked with missile weapons.
>>>>> Would larger shields work too?
>>>
>>> Absolutely. And with zero detriment, unless you're
>>> into casting spells slightly above your league. (Even
>>> these are OK if you're just wearing a buckler.)
>>
>> Unfortunately, MDHu's are likely to be casting spells
>> out of their league. (Without at least some Husading
>> this would be even more challenging, and Dwarves suck
>> at that.)
>
> /me imagines Jan Hus standing among his battlewagons at
> the top of Orc Hill imagining clever new magic-related
> ranged-battle tactics.

Hey, *you* started the trend with 'Bevokers'. :-)

>> MDHu's. Heavy armour might make early game a bit
>> easier, but early game is perfectly survivable anyway,
>> and in early mid-game armour quickly ceases to stop
>> enough damage anyway, and evasion starts to really
>> shine.
>
> Heavy armour can also shine given its chance, and half
> of that chance is insane armour aptitude. Check. (Don't
> be mistaken, I am at heart an Evasion fanatic too. But
> I'm wary of that fanaticism.) But armour with high
> enough AC to let the aptitude show its stuff tends to
> suck in the Husading department, unless you find a
> relatively early Swamp/Ice/Null Dragon armour. Still,
> the SDA is something that you can generate nearly at
> will if you can reach the Swamp, and I think we can
> agree that an MDHu *can* reach the Swamp in this
> challenge.

Perhaps, especially given the fact that MDHu's are likely
to be wearing shields most of the time to cover some their
evasion/blocking-needs. However, that would lead to a very
different MDHu, non-spellcasting most likely, and I'm not
sure I have the heart for it. It's just that *never*
catching a Crystal Spear with your wide, hairy,
well-armoured chest beats everything else in this game...

Regarding Swamp: I actually think Swamp would be quite
hard for archers. Not worth exploring it probably, and on
Swamp:5 the smartest thing to do would be to lure all
those monsters out, teleport in, grab the rune and
teleport out. (I believe controlled teleports *are*
allowed there, even before you have the rune? Now that I
think about it, I know for sure that controlled blinks at
least are allowed.)

Also, an archer without =oPR or at least "oClarity would
need an awful lot of healing to take down a swamp dragon.
:-)

> [..]
>>>>> Can you believe I actually blew it?
>>>>> After receiving something like this I should've been
>>>>> working *hard* on this character.
>>>
>>> That's exactly the feeling I had when my third --
>>> *third*!! -- character with an item granting a damage
>>> bonus bit the dust. :-)
>>
>> I've seen exactly one of those in my pure-missile games
>> so far. In morgue.txt, and it wasn't that impressive
>> anyway - +3,+1 or so I believe.
>
> I've felt incredibly lucky to find so many in so few, so
> short games... and all the more embarassed to have blown
> them all.

By the way, wondering if slayings are cumulative? E.g., a
couple of rings of slaying and an artifact armour with
slaying could go a long way towards alleviating archers'
offensive problems... if those slayings *were* cumulative.

> [...]
>>>> Vanquished Creatures
>>>> A hill giant (D:10)
>>>>> This is what makes me certain the challenge is
>>>>> winnable. Okay, so I used an axe trap to keep him
>>>>> away from me, and hasted myself too. But he went
>>>>> down *easily*, and that probably means that with
>>>>> Crossbows 27, +9 crossbow of speed and some Str to
>>>>> work with even the endgame critters shouldn't take
>>>>> *too* long to kill.
>>>
>>> Missile weapons of speed are frustratingly rare,
>>> though. And Str only helps with bows/slings.
>>
>> Oh. You mean to say you don't need high Str with a
>> highly enchanted crossbow?!
>
> Precisely. That's part of their attraction.

Ok, change of plans for my future MDHu's - everything goes
into Dex. :-)

>> That I should've put all my increases
>> into Dex?!
>
> Not sure what it does, but I think its effect is
> non-null, yes.

Well, at least Dex gives an evasion bonus. That's good
enough for me. Anyway, SSRT. ;-)

>> *mutter* *mutter* Anyway, is there *something* good I
>> would get out of all those Str increases? Carrying
>> capacity I guess. :-/
>
> I really need to go over those algorithms again. I
> especially need to figure out if Str affects anything
> but distance for thrown weapons.

I would really love to see your findings. :-)

>>>> 6 orc priests
>>>>> Those that decided to start givin' me trouble
>>>>> readily received some confusion/paralysis treatment,
>>>>> with some severe porcupination after that.
>>>
>>> SpAs's generally only look at them long enough to
>>> deliver a poisoned needle to the forehead. How rude!
>>> Such as's they are! If only the same treatment didn't
>>> go out of style in the Elven Halls...
>>
>> [tina-mode on] Why? [tina-mode off] Do they shrug off
>> poisoning too fast?
>
> They come in packs, blink, haste themselves, and other
> nastiness. All too often, by the time you're done
> injecting your needles of death, you've got a hasted DE
> Knight pounding on you furiously, or three metric
> buttloads of ubefetuses surrounding you on all sides, or
> you're getting porcupined by arrows and darts, or
> alternatively thrown elements and magic darts coming
> from three different compass points. All four
> unescapable situations even for a Spriggan, and one of
> them unstoppable by Silence even if it's perfectly timed
> (and none of them stoppable by a poorly timed Silence).

I guess my experiences with TrBe made my vision a little
blurry where elves are concerned. I mean, "a hasted DE
Knight pounding on your furiously" == "Heh heh heh, stop
it, stop it now! It's *ticklish*!" for a troll.

>>>> 3 jellies
>>>>> Too bad I didn't have a /oPolymorph.
>>>
>>> Aww, it's OK. The dungeon is littered with ammunition,
>>> though it tends to be either valuable or train an off
>>> skill, true. But then, this didn't *have* any off
>>> skills. :-)
>>
>> Actually, *slings* seem to be working very well on
>> them. They don't seem to be interested in eating
>> *stones*.
>
> Really? I'll have to take a look at that.

Yeah, should be peer-reviewed, I'm not certain about my
results, although the behavior seems reproducible.

--
roy axenov

.

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