Re: RGP: Newsgroup VS Forum

On Tue, 24 Jun, metallik wrote:
Sure, plenty.  Check out ToyotaNation some time.

Sounds like that other fella didn't think too highly of that moderated
forum...

*shrug* Maybe he was on a different subforum than I that did have a tool
for a moderator. I've had no trouble there, but I only frequent the
05+ Tacoma forum. Oh well, perhaps I chose my example poorly, I dunno.
Or perhaps I play nice on forums and thus don't notice moderators taking
action. ;-)

Assuming the forum owner doesn't archive old discussions, keeps good
backups, etc. Of course, what happens to all that information when
the forum owner decides he's done and takes the whole site down? It
isn't that hard to link to old Usenet threads via Google anyway, I've
done it on multiple occasions.

So it's okay to rely on a single entity like Google but not any other
single entity? Got it. Thanks.

You seem to be a stickler for organization... I prefer to have all
the content available up front and sort it myself. You also keep

Several forum packages out there will let the user see the info like
that if they want, actually, so we have the best of both worlds.

The biggest reason I'm a "stickler" for this is that I think at a
certain point you reach saturation in a newsgroup, and about 500 posts
per day on this group is probably it. At this point we're pushing
people out by overwhelming them, which keeps the numbers from getting
worse. But that means people are now missing out who might be
valuable contributors (and we've had plenty of reports of people
leaving RGP for that reason already!), and I don't like that. Give
them a way to see just the parts they want to and they might stick
around and help out more folks. It just allows you to have an even
bigger and more vibrant community.

approaching this as if it were some kind of knowledge base. RGP is
not a technical forum, it is a pinball forum - even trivial
discussions about anything pinball are welcome. Your attempt at
organization would quickly lead to a gazillion sub-forums, making it
much harder to browse new posts. Why make people browse a bunch of

There is forum software out there to let folks have it both ways. The
default is a healthy amount of organization, which is what will bring
in more folks. Which might just help grow pinball in general. Right
now I don't think RGP does *much* in that regard. Some, maybe. But
not as much as a healthy forum would.

multiple forums? Oh, to sell ads... :) Not that a lot of forums do
THAT these days *rolls eyes*

You should really prepare yourself for the day when you can't keep
getting valuable services for free here on the Internet. Usenet is
basically free right now, and that day is ending.

Now you're full of ***.  If RGP was full of fanboys, it would have
died long ago.  RGP has some very loud and annoying fanboys, but it
lives thanks ONLY to the technical types who continue to help people
get out of jams and generally make pinballs better.  The folks who

Whoah, care to back THAT claim up? Lots of people come here to discuss
what game/manufacturer/designers are best. One more time: RGP is NOT
solely a technical forum. I answer tech questions if I can, and very
occasionally make such a post, but I come here to talk pinball,
especially gameplay. Lots of others do as well.

I still see that as a technical topic. I don't see those discussions
erode into *just* fanboy flamefests except by a small handful of the
same individuals. The rest are generally helpful and insightful folks
(like yourself, often) who can have a rational debate even when they
don't necessarily agree and back things up with some amount of factual
info. I guess I see "fanboy" things as stuff like "I like Steve Ritchey
pins ONLY and all other designers suck." But I don't consider it
fanboyism to say "I like SR pins best because he has a style of flow that
fits best with the kind of shots I'm best at..." *shrug*

Tell you what, go get some web software and MAKE a pinball technical
forum. Subdivide it however you see fit - EM, SS, by manufacturer, by
boardset, by problems.. whatever. Create this technical forum you
crave so badly and just maybe a bunch of folks will begin
participating in it. I doubt it replaces RGP but you could implement
all the features you like and it would become an asset to the
community.

And if it doesn't, then the market has spoken. Again.

The time may not be right. Usenet isn't dead yet. But it took a big
hit this week, and a few more is all it's going to take...

post on RGP with good technical info or at least asking about things
technical outnumber the "fanboys" about 50 to 1.

I'd like to see some stats to back THAT claim up :) Let's adjust the
fraction slightly... you're claiming that for every 100 advocacy
posts, there are 5,000 technical posts? By that ratio, one Derek
thread alone would result in enough tech posts to fix every broken
game on the planet ;)

Well, I'd have to add in FS, WTB, etc as "technical" in nature, and yeah,
I don't think I'm that far off. :-)

too.  I've seen a ton of the EM guys basically say things like "hopefully
some EM types see this in the midst of all the SS stuff here and can
help..."  Basically I think a lot of EM types have abandoned RGP thanks
to the dominance of SS talk.  Which is a real shame, even though I have

Welcome to pinball in 2008, where there are gobs more SS games,
players and fans than EM types. I don't buy the 'getting lost' part
though - simply putting the two letters 'EM' into a subject header is
enough to make the post stand out (and be easily searchable). I think
interest in EMs overall is waning. A bummer, but true.

It's waning, but not as fast as its traffic on RGP waned. Not nearly,
IMHO.

bickering would go away and a lot of perception would change.  The
"fighting" about which game is A list and which is B and such could be
in a forum for that, and nobody who doesn't care to bicker about those
would see that "bickering" nor care.  *shrug*

And again (sigh) .. no one has to see it now. If the title of the
thread is ANY variation of 'which is better, X or Y?' then DON'T CLICK
ON IT. If people read and engage in an argument post, it is because
THEY WANTED TO.

So I have to wade through 500 posts in a day just to see the 25 I care about?
You don't think that doesn't make a lot of people say "to hell with it, I
don't have the time to sift it any more"???

This is the one thing I cannot understand - people bitching about
posts THEY DO NOT HAVE TO READ. The people who are happy with Usenet
are the ones who do just that. And ff a previously interesting thread
drifts off topic, simply STOP READING IT if you don't want to. Hate
to use the caps, but this is such a basic concept it is incredulous
that so many folks just don't get it.

It's not about reading the posts, it's about having to sift through even
all the subject lines. How is this so hard to understand?

useful for porn delivery.  My point had more to do with how the perception
of Usenet has turned and those who don't use it for any of the actual
useful parts think it's really just a child porn delivery mechanism.

So we throw away a powerful discussion tool just because of
perception? How about fighting that perception and educating people
about the proper role of Usenet? Pinball still has a gambling stigma
in some areas, shall we burn all the games and switch to vids?

Hey, I'm not saying it's right, just that it's going to happen. The fact
is that Usenet is no longer being provided because customers demand it.
No single ISP has enough customers that demand it to matter any more.
That means it exists simply through the benevolence of a few folks keeping
the server running in the corner. When the pressure is on from the boss
to keep that job (see: Economy), bye bye server. Doesn't take much
"perception" change to start doing the math on how smart it is to keep
Usenet servers running. If not having it won't lose you any significant
amount of customers...

I mean when a big ISP like Time Warner can just drop it with not much
backlash...


--Donnie

.