Re: Incorrect use of undated sources

On Feb 22, 11:20 am, mstanw...@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Feb 22, 5:13 am, al <a...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Feb 21, 6:31 pm, mstanw...@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:> On Feb 21, 9:19 pm, al <a...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
[..]
AL:
Let me repeat the question. Do you read and understand the words 八卦
and 占卜.
八卦 on One-Taiji. Look-alike symbol in MaDiao
占卜 on One-Bamboo have a meaning "to divine" in CEDIC.

The meanings of the symbols on the cards of the three suits is not is
dispute and has never been.

Bamboo in MaDiao and bamboo in mahjong; the symbolic correlation is self
evident.
++++++++++++
The above poster should do what he demands of others - be specific. Ma
diao in where? Where is the term 'Bamboo' mentioned in Ma Diao?

Ah, you don't know yet. I explained that many times. Sou3 relates to
bamboo. Sou is a bundle of tchant (banmboo strips) tied together.

BTW, when as a child, I learn sou3 just by the sound and it meant a
knot in a rope.

Where
is the term Bamboo mentioned in early Ma Qiao?

Bamboo is where the sparrows are.
+++++++++++

Red Flower (红花), White (白花) Old Thousand (老千).
Red Zhong (中), White Bai (白) and green Fa in mahjong.
The colors of these cards match. The first set of three come from
MaDiao (MJM Book). The second set of colors are in mahjong.

This is interresting. This very topic was covered in a discussion some
time ago (in 2002 in the subject thread 'Mo He Pai'). There has been
the idea put forward in the past that the three extra cards in 4 then
three suited cards were then transferred or somehow followed into Ma
Qiao.

I am not aware of the discussion history on the topic.
+++++++++++++++
Examination of the above poster's claim shows that it is incorrect.

(1) A Ma Diao deck consists of 4 suits and three extra cards.The deck
in the MJ Museum book is NOT a Ma Diao deck as represented by Pan for
use in playing the game of Ma Diao.

We are not even sure Ma Diao means Horse hangs a leg or Horse drops a
leg or for that matter what the horse did drop!

On page 40 of the MJ Museum book
it is explained by Takashi Ebashi that his term 'Ma Tiao' refers to a
FAMILY of playing cards. This FAMILY consists of the orginal four
suited deck and the three suited varieties.

So what does that mean? Ma Tiao can be 4-suited or of 3-suited
variety. They are all in the family.
+++++++++++++++++++

(2) Only the colours on TWO of the cards area identical match. The
cards also contain other insignia that are NOT replicated in MJ.

Which are the two matching colors?
It depends on which 2 colors do match. The meaning can be very
important metaphorically.

In symbolic communication, two colors and 2 only, red and white for
example, they could represent yin and yang.

The same two colors in a group of 3 colors, red white and green for
example, could mean quite different. They could represent Man, Heaven
and Earth.

In the first example, the concept represented is Duality. In the
second example the concept of Triplicity is represented. One important
thing to appreciate is that triplicity is related to duality.
++++++++++++++++++++

(3) The third card's insignia are NOT identical to the matched MJ
tile's insignia. Only an interpretation placed on it can shoe-horn it
to fit.

That is how simplicity of allegory and complexity of metaphors can
confuse people who are not accustomed to oriental culture.
++++++++++++++++++++

(4) The evidence we have of the earliest sets shows us that these
tiles were NOT present. In two sets they are absent and in the other
only the red zhong is present.

Which earliest set in question? First could it be an incomplete set
with tiles missing? The next question is what other tiles added?

Was there a pair of Dragon and Phoenix ?

The AMNH set has 9 tiles missing. The 4 Bai tles could have taken for
blanks and separated from the set. Zhong and Bai would completee the
Duality concept of Male and Female or yang and yin.

The BMA set likewise has missing tiles, but the Zhong and Bai are
there. As I said in my post "2+3; that is the key".

By the way, that is the basic idea of Yi (variability).
+++++++++++++++
(5) The above poster must specifically describe his argument for a
correlation of these cards using the 1, 2, 3 ... format. He must be
clear and simple.

Just to meet your specification, I let you stipulate the conditions in
a null hypothesis for me.
++++++++++++++++++
(6) If his correlation argument is an argument from analogy, then it
is extremely weak to the point of being a possible explanation - not a
probable one. But this will depend on whether he describes his
specific argument in clear and simple terms so that we may evaluate
his reasoning.

I will try my best. I am not as well schooled as you in logic.
+++++++++++++++++
MS:
The three suits are clearly so marked but the three extra cards of the
deck of cards are not. Claiming the cards represent divination without
any evidence is plain distortion.

You are either mentally blind or too quick to think of reasons to
attack. The three cards are marked clearly, as Red Flower, White
Flower and Old -Thousand in Chinese characters...

++++++++++++++++++
MS:
That the cards are marked with divination concepts is, again, not in
dispute, although I should have said that the two suits are clearly so
marked (the third suit is also clear to me but not necessarily to
others). The third suit, the myriads suit has personages from the
Three Kingdom's Novel sankuochih - an important story with one of its
themes being the exploration of the compatibility of taoism and
confucianism ( and hence is not incongruous with the I Ching idea).

That is a bit far fetch. I consider Ten-Thousand-things" in Taoism and
the Yi Jing is relevant reference. The basic concept is 2 interact to
get 3. The 3 continue interaction with 2 and produce the Ten-Thousand-
things in the universe. Myriad is just a countless large number, again
metaphorically.

That the three cards follow that idea is also not in dispute - for
example, there is a portrait of what appears to be Wang Bi, an
important intepreter of the I Ching, on one of the cards.

I never noticed that one. That sounds like a name of a famous poet.
Yes?
+++++++++++++++++
However, it is clear from the extant card packs of the three suited
variety that the earliest known insignia of the three suits plus the
three extra cards, sported non divination insignia. These non
divination insignia still appear on the 3 cards in photo 78/79 plus
the original myriads insignia.

You ae saying Red and White colors are non-divvinational, if I read
you right. I disagree.
Read my explanation for zhong and bai, as well as for zhong fa bai.
See the connections here.

Red and White = zhong and bai = yang and yin = bi-gram --->> trigram
--->> hexagram = divination.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
MS:
It is therefore NOT clear that the cards COMPLETELY represent
divination unless an intepretation is placed on them that ignores the
influence of previous card insignias, as the previous poster has done.

AL:
No. No. Quit making accusations. Look at the explanation immediately
above.
Try to understand Chinese philosophy and language usage.

What mistakes made out of ignorance is in the past,' when I was young
and foolish' as they say. Look at the question and answer now.
++++++++++++++++++
The placing of other symbols on the cards - whether for decoration or
ideological purposes or for turning the cards into some other use - is
seen from card packs from the late 19th/20th century(see Prunner).
There is no evidence to support a claim that this tradition was
evident during the Ming/early Qing times (aoart from the portraits
from the Water |margin on the Myriads.

This sounds mumble jumble to me. What do you mean?

Indeed, this tradition was also shown in two early MJ card decks from
around 1915 and shown in a MJ set ordered by Mei Lan Fang (p 60 MJM
book).

What you added here just muddy the water.
++++++++++++++++
I am tired of this.
---to be continued.
+++++++++++++
Lu Rong's 38-card deck, is it 4-suited? How does 38/4 sound?
4 suits of 9 and a remainder of 2 loose cards?

Wrong again. What the above poster fails to say is that there are no
extra cards. One suit has 11 cards and the 3 others have nine cards
each as Lo describes..

What about the 40-card 4-suited Ma Diao? 10 cards to each suit?

Similarly, Lo describes Lu Rong's deck but 2 extra cards are added to
the Cash suit, which then has 11 cards and it is this deck that is
described in Pan's manual.

Right you are. How many cards in a suit?

See above.



I gave reasons for it's [Photo-79] being a 4-suited game.
AL:
A good explanation in fact.

This is a case of the tester marking their own paper.

MS:
There were no specific reasons from the above poster. Just vague
assertions. No specific definition nor specific criteria of a suit was
given that corresponds with the concept of suit in cards. Instead, the
concept of 'suit' was redefined so that the three extra cards could be
shoe-horned to fit it.

I asked the questions about the numeric make-up of the 4-suited decks
in Ming. You have 11 Cash cards with Zero and Half included. There is
no definite number per suit. Did you know that?

He is still avoiding giving us an answer to what is his description of
the specific criteria of a suit and what is therefore his specific
definition? Instead he offers a diversion in true contrarian troll
style.

He must answer the specific question with a clear and specific answer
that makes sense.

As a reminder, card designs and distribution had to be permitted by
royal edict in olden days. Gambling had been officially forbidden from
time to time. I assume you have the historic details at your finger
tip and need not give evidence here,. Money symbols connotes gambling.

Unfortunately, the cards and their games existed nevertheless, as Lu
Rong and Pan Zhiheng and Feng Menglong describe.

MS:> Speculation, until a specific argument with specific evidence of this
interpretation is given.
Not all speculation and you know it.

The above poster is now a mind reader. Unfortunately he cannot resist
also speculating about the thoughts of others. Sadly, all
speculation.

Try 'correlation' or "reasoning
by analogy" as you said.
A key word is missing in your sentence above. That word is "not".
You are saying that the money derivation hypothesis DOES NOT claim to
explain the extra groups. Right?

This is correct. It doesn't even claim that the original engravers/
designers were aware of the money origin.

But this is for a future article and not for prepublication. The above
poster will have to wait.

Why would a researcher tries to explain only part of research subject?
A mahjong set has 4 suits at least. I mean 3 suits of 9 plus a suit of
7 cards (E,S,W,N,Z,F,B).

Wrong. There is no evidence F and B were original to the game. Z was
in only one early ma qiao tile set. The other two did not have the
group ZFB.

This is like formulating a theory of origin for a whole country
knowingly leaving out nearly a quarter of its population in one
separate region.
Not claiming to include the separate group is no excuse to exclude
them in the "research" hypothesis.

This betrays the confused thinking of the above poster. The money
derivation hypothesis only seeks to explain where the three suits
terms - and indeed the three suits - originated. It says nothing about
the other groups.

Other possible explanations for why these extra groups were added can
be devised, but until there is evidence to support any explantion then
they remain just possible curiosities.

It is inexcusable for researchers to pursue such a corrupt project
especially when there is an alternative hypothesis that claims to
include all regions and the total population.

Unfortunately, until the above poster can provide one shred of
evidence to support his speculations, then it will remain one possible
explanation.

[the rest of his reply was a repeated rant and was snipped]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOW! Let's have some answers to the questions asked by this poster,
but not nswered by the above poster in his last reply. They are
repeated below.

[He asked]

State your argument in simplest form.

[this poster's reply]
Simply, the reason for a fuller reply is that it is a protection
against the above poster's habit of the troll behaviour of distorting
and incorrectly restating others positions.

Principle; A cause/influence must precede its effect.
(1) B = earliest documented ma qiao suit names/meanings.
(2) C = photo 78/79 3-suited deck and/or the concepts depicted on the
cards.
(3) C is undated and therefore cannot be claimed to be older than or
as old as B.
(4) The above poster is claiming that C is evidence for an influence
on B.
(5) But a cause/influence must precede its effect.
(6) and since we have (3)
(7) then C cannot be claimed as evidence of a cause/influence of the
effect/result B.

[he asked and demanded]

What is the effect? Be specific now.
It is important to

...

read more >>

.

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