Re: Incorrect use of undated sources

On Feb 21, 6:31 pm, mstanw...@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Feb 21, 9:19 pm, al <a...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

The distortion of C to match A was given in a previous post when the
above poster stated;

Since this poster dose not have the courtesy to reply direct, the
thread has to be marked to identify who says what.

MS: quoting AL
"[THE SIGNIFICANCE IS THAT THE CARDS WERE DESIGNED ON THE CONCEPT OF
DIVINATION. CAN YOU READ AND UNDERSTAND THE CHINESE WORDS?"

AL:
Let me repeat the question. Do you read and understand the words 八卦
and 占卜.
八卦 on One-Taiji. Look-alike symbol in MaDiao
占卜 on One-Bamboo have a meaning "to divine" in CEDIC. Bamboo in
MaDiao and bamboo in mahjong; the symbolic correlation is self
evident.

In case you are too proud to ask, 占卜 = to divine.
八卦 is Eight-Trigram. A trigram is a graphic symbol.
http://www.taopage.org/iching/iching_symbols.html

Red Flower (红花), White (白花) Old Thousand (老千).
Red Zhong (中), White Bai (白) and green Fa in mahjong.
The colors of these cards match. The first set of three come from
MaDiao (MJM Book). The second set of colors are in mahjong.

MS:
The three suits are clearly so marked but the three extra cards of the
deck of cards are not. Claiming the cards represent divination without
any evidence is plain distortion.

You are either mentally blind or too quick to think of reasons to
attack. The three cards are marked clearly, as Red Flower, White
Flower and Old -Thousand in Chinese characters.

Let me tell you something else. Look at the lower section of each card
of the top 2 suits in Photo -79 each card has two trigrams making 18
hexagrams representing stages of life development. The first hexagram
is Heaven (Man), the second hexagram is Earth (Woman), the third
hexagram is Sprouting (Birth) etc. etc.

However, I think I am wasting my time on this.

AL:
No. It was the other way. You tried to distort the photo 78/79 set to
3-suited madiao game.
I gave an explanation why the card deck Photo-79 is 4-suited in
detail in a post earlier. A suit is in a defined limited number. Cards
are grouped or suited by their common characteristics.

Lu Rong's 38-card deck, is it 4-suited? How does 38/4 sound?
4 suits of 9 and a remainder of 2 loose cards? What about the 40-card
4-suited Ma Diao? 10 cards to each suit? Think about it for a while.

MS:
The above poster is wrong again. Ma Diao was a game played with a **4 -
suited deck** of money suited cards.

Right you are. How many cards in a suit?

I gave reasons for it's [Photo-79] being a 4-suited game.
AL:
A good explanation in fact.

MS:
There were no specific reasons from the above poster. Just vague
assertions. No specific definition nor specific criteria of a suit was
given that corresponds with the concept of suit in cards. Instead, the
concept of 'suit' was redefined so that the three extra cards could be
shoe-horned to fit it.

I asked the questions about the numeric make-up of the 4-suited decks
in Ming. You have 11 Cash cards with Zero and Half included. There is
no definite number per suit. Did you know that?

AL:
The Red Flower, White Flower and Old Thousand are the key theme cards
in the game. I [mean] that is what the game is about; not money.

As a reminder, card designs and distribution had to be permitted by
royal edict in olden days. Gambling had been officially forbidden from
time to time. I assume you have the historic details at your finger
tip and need not give evidence here,. Money symbols connotes gambling.

Pan, Feng and Rong,
they all got it wrong.

MS:
Speculation, until a specific argument with specific evidence of this
interpretation is given.

Not all speculation and you know it. Try 'correlation' or "reasoning
by analogy" as you said.

AL:
The problem is you can not even include the 4th suit in mahjong for
comparison with your money suits. Money gets blown away in the Winds!

MS:
Wrong again. This was again answered fully in a previous thread. The

Here it is again. That was "answered fully" previously. Obviously it
is not convincing. Now in simple terms explain how you could reconcile
money with Winds Directions? The honest answer is that they don't
belong in the same game.

Since East South West and North are not money, and they clearly are
Wind / Directions in plain language, they don't belong with Money,
then hose symbols can not be interpreted as Money.

MS:
money derivation hypothesis does claim to explain the extra groups,
only the derivation of the earliest three suit terms. Specifically,
the claim is that the terms were originally derived from money terms
found in preceding money suited card games.
++++++++++++
A key word is missing in your sentence above. That word is "not".
You are saying that the money derivation hypothesis DOES NOT claim to
explain the extra groups. Right?

Why would a researcher tries to explain only part of research subject?
A mahjong set has 4 suits at least. I mean 3 suits of 9 plus a suit of
7 cards (E,S,W,N,Z,F,B).

Suits 1, 2 and 3 are claimed to be related. The 4th suit is unclaimed
and of unknown origin.

This is like formulating a theory of origin for a whole country
knowingly leaving out nearly a quarter of its population in one
separate region.

Not claiming to include the separate group is no excuse to exclude
them in the "research" hypothesis.

It is inexcusable for researchers to pursue such a corrupt project
especially when there is an alternative hypothesis that claims to
include all regions and the total population.

Mahjong was "discovered" in complete sets, with the so-called moneys
suits and a mysterious group of Chinese characters. Historians managed
to get the names from local people who learned from elders verbally.
They could not get any meaningful association between the drawing-
symbols and the strange group of Winds and Colors. So they just
ignored the oddity in the mahjong set.

Unfortunately, Wilkinson and other historians didn't meet any one who
could explain the possibility of an I-Ching connection to the game. So
now his Cash can never buy a good explanation for the game's
composition, rules of play or any meaning of it all.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
Enough of this for the day.
[..]
.

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