Re: Who coined the mahjong symbols "Cash", "String of Cash" , "Myriad of Cash" and why

On Feb 19, 4:18 am, al <a...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
That is untrue.
1-Cash is a taiji diagram in Ming 4-suited Ma Diao.

Wrong. Misleading. There is an illustration on the 1 Cash card that
has an appearance "like the diagram of the taiji". This is not
evidence that the suit was derived from I Ching concepts.

[snip]
If that was not the diagram of taiji and it only appears like it, why
is it there?

[sigh] This is becoming tedious. I will explain one more time. The
original statement from the above poster was "1-Cash IS a taiji
diagram in Ming 4-suited Ma Diao." [The 'is' is emphasised by me in
block capitals]. The above poster is claiming it IS a taiji diagram
whereas the text does not give that certainty. The diagram may or may
not be a representation of the Taiji.

It is curious that the above poster is still using the translations in
his arguments when he has attempted to distort them, cast unfounded
doubt on them and cast unfounded doubt on the translators expertise -
all in an attempt to show that they are not worthy as evidence!

Does it look more "like" cash than the diagram of taiji? If so, why
did Lo translate it as "like the diagram of the taiji"? Rather why did
Pan say that "1 Cash. like the diagram of the taiji (grand ultimate)?

These are the proper questions to ask. The above poster is entitled to
make an argument and *draw the conclusion* that the illustration is of
the taiji but he is not entitled to say with certainty [because no
discussion of his reasons was given] that is what Lo's translation
meant.

As I have stated, I think it is somewhat probable that it is a diagram
of the taiji.

Other illustrations appear on the Wan suit cards that are of portraits of
personages from the novel 'The Water Margin'.

May be so, but did they have anything to do with Ma Diao? They are
outlaws.

Not 'may be so'. 1stly, Pan says "the illustrations are all *half
portraits*. The Myriad suit is similar." 2ndly, the names are of those
found in the Tens of Myriads and Myriads suits described by Lu Rong;
he says "There are figures drawn from the *Water Margin band of
outlaws* shown on each card as follows:"

They appear, as a guess, to be designs to adorn two suits where
illustrations of Tens of Myriads of Cash and Myriads of Cash would be
difficult to illustrate. But so far, there is no documentary evidence
that I know of that suggests a reason for why they are there.

So with the half portraits *as illustrations* and so with the "like
the diagram of the taiji".

Taiji diagram is also in a "modern money deck" in Sloperama FAQ #11. .. A
whole suit of taiji diagrams in a 4-suited and undated deck in the
Book of the Mahjong Museum (Japan, 1999).

These are modern decks or undated decks so therefore they do not come
before the earliest ma quiao suit names. They are irrelevant for that
purpose. The reasons for using them are bogus.

Another reason is that you never noticed them until I pointed them
out.> [..]

That is a blatant load of rubbish. They were well known to myself and
others. They were not mentioned in this discussion because "These are
modern decks or undated decks so therefore they do not come before the
earliest ma quiao suit names. They are irrelevant for that purpose.
The reasons for using them are bogus."

That is still the case.

These are appropriate questions the article was meant to create.

The article injected "string of cash" unknowingly perhaps.
Nevertheless it is a distortion of fact, because 'tchant' [qian] is in
fact a thin strip of bamboo for divination use. I have seen it used.

The article did NOT inject it 'unknowingly perhaps'. The
*interpretation* of 'tchant' is 'qian' and in the article it is
followed by a question mark **?** to indicate that myself and others
were not sure whether that was accurate. We noted that Mauger's entire
article relied heavily on Culin and Wilkinson in discussing various
games including three-suited card packs. Wilkinson discussed in his
article that the three suits of the card packs were originally
representations of various quantities of cash. Since Mauger relied
heavily on Wilkinson in his article and Culin relied heavily on
Wilkinson then Mauger's "qian? zi" was interpreted not for bamboo
slips for divination use [only one of various meanings] but in light
of Mauger's reliance on Wilkinson, it was interpreted as meaning
bamboo slips used for gambling and also as a remnant of strings of
cash. Mauger's illustrations showed ordinary 'bamboo' sticks with 2
horizontal lines in the middle as they appear in 1920's sets.

But *even if* it can be sticks for divination, it cannot be used as
evidence of an influence at the earliest time becuase Mauger is early
20th century.

The ** refers to footnote 10 in the article. It says bamboo and cash
are not “incongruous”,

"Not incongruous"; ridiculous is more like it.

Irrelevant. Another typical baseless response of trolling behaviour.
The comment in the footnote was to indicate a possible connection
hence the words "not altogether" and was a piece of information
designed to be researched by others should they so wish. Indeed, that
is why the articles are packed with observations as footnotes.

Didn't say for how long and by whom for what purpose. That is typical
Western wisdom in Eastern culture.

These comments are appropriate and are the type of rpsnese that was
hopd to be generated by the notes in the footnotes. The bitterness is
the last comment is very sad. The dislike of Western modes of thought
has been apparent in his other posts.

State the *entire wording* of the footnote and try and reign in your
troll behaviour for a minute. Once the entire footnote is stated then
an answer will be given.

It would even be better to do that yourself. Then nothing to be left
out of footnote 10.

Another diversionary troll tactic. Every time a claim by the above
poster and the appropriate text is demanded, he produces a
diversionary answer by throwing the burden of proof onto his
questioner.

I lived in China before 1950, I never heard of money bamboo trees or
bamboo money trees.

The claim was for 'bamboo discs'. Personal experience is fine up until
the individual was of an young age to remeber such observations.
Before then is another matter. if he does not want to entertain the
notion then he has the freedom not to.

Fill in what is missing and explain it in full.

It is the above posters initial claim so the burden is on him to
produce the reasons for it (including the entire quote).

Note, even though it cannot be used as the best explanation, it can
still be used as one of many competing ideas to be kept in case
evidence should come to light that it may yet be able to explain.

Kept to explain what? Bamboo trees grow money discs?

[sigh] The above poster's I Ching explanation.
.

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